The UVB Varanid debate !

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by V87

But if you are giving the correct husbandry ... And you have a large enclosure ...

And If these bulbs give any benefit then why not .....

They are not a miracle cure for everything no but any advantage is an advantage ...

We all knw that many monitors will breed in a tiny rub but this does not make them healthy not saying a UVB or UVA bulb will but it will help .... As will a large enclosure so if you can provide both for the better keepers with already good husbandry is this not something you want to add as a bonus to your captive animals .... ?

IMO I feel your statement to be old school and becoming out dated ... Just saying its sounds like you don't want to see the positives rather than them not being there

If it has but one advantage ... Why not have it ?

You've got a lot of if's maybe's and unknowns there, kinda proves my point.
IF..you are giving correct husbandry
IF their is any benefit
How exactly has it been proven to be a bonus?

I am old school and out dated, but my positives are generating from F1 to F5 monitors by the hundreds and setting longevity records for the species I keep, not a bunch of maybe's and promises from people who want to sell me something.

If I could see the results, I'd be all over it, I just have my doubts and a limited budget.


Personally I don't know that many monitors will breed in tiny tubs, my experience has been the exact opposite, but then I've only been keeping and breeding monitors for 21 years.

If it has one advantage.....what is it?
Thanks.

[V87]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

You've got a lot of if's maybe's and unknowns there, kinda proves my point.
IF..you are giving correct husbandry
IF their is any benefit
How exactly has it been proven to be a bonus?

I am old school and out dated, but my positives are generating from F1 to F5 monitors by the hundreds and setting longevity records for the species I keep, not a bunch of maybe's and promises from people who want to sell me something.

If I could see the results, I'd be all over it, I just have my doubts and a limited budget.


Personally I don't know that many monitors will breed in tiny tubs, my experience has been the exact opposite, but then I've only been keeping and breeding monitors for 21 years.

If it has one advantage.....what is it?
Thanks.

I'll give u 2 ...

UVA ... Eyesight
UVB ...... White blood cell count ...

I have seen green tree monitors bred in awful conditions infact there was an article on the rep report the other week ...

As for the ifs .... If a keeper has got everything correct uv will b of benefit ... Cheers me dears

http://www.ivis.org/journals/exoticDVM/9-3/Brames.pdf

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by V87

I'll give u 2 ...

UVA ... Eyesight
UVB ...... White blood cell count ...

I have seen green tree monitors bred in awful conditions infact there was an article on the rep report the other week ...

As for the ifs .... If a keeper has got everything correct uv will b of benefit ... Cheers me dears

Hi, the question needs to be; how many generations of those V. prasinus were bred in "awful conditions", rather than they copulated and the keeper incubated some eggs once or twice, if that was the case?
The tests on white blood cell counts were done on animals known to be deficient in those respects, but it seems no details were given as to the conditions they were kept under? THAT`S what makes them in some ways "unreliable" when deciding whether UVB is necessary to keep them healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, the signs are it isn`t necessarily so....
You did go and say you were going to put yourself in the firing line!

[V87]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, the question needs to be; how many generations of those V. prasinus were bred in "awful conditions", rather than they copulated and the keeper incubated some eggs once or twice, if that was the case?
The tests on white blood cell counts were done on animals known to be deficient in those respects, but it seems no details were given as to the conditions they were kept under? THAT`S what makes them in some ways "unreliable" when deciding whether UVB is necessary to keep them healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, the signs are it isn`t necessarily so....
You did go and say you were going to put yourself in the firing line!

With regard to how many generations no idea but if it happens once it will happen again ..... No ?

Like I said when the results come out from you knw where it may go some way to proving uv and it's worth .... Did you read the link I put up ?

Same is said of a lot of husbandry issues .... How much of everything is scientifically proved ?

I put my self in the firing line because I believe uv is if worth to our captives ... They are designed for it over millions of years why would it not be of benefit ?

I'm not saying its a miracle but it if it has one advantage then why deny them it ?

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by V87

With regard to how many generations no idea but if it happens once it will happen again ..... No ?

Like I said when the results come out from you knw where it may go some way to proving uv and it's worth .... Did you read the link I put up ?

Same is said of a lot of husbandry issues .... How much of everything is scientifically proved ?

I put my self in the firing line because I believe uv is if worth to our captives ... They are designed for it over millions of years why would it not be of benefit ?

I'm not saying its a miracle but it if it has one advantage then why deny them it ?

I don`t think it`s enough to say "if it happens once it will happen again", we should have got past that stage by now, surely (guesswork, or "hope for the best")?
These days many of the results are in, there IS a "formula" for repeated breeding success over a number of generations with many species without the use of UVB bulbs as has already been explained. Those results ARE "scientific" in the sense they`ve been PROVEN to work time and time again over the last 15 to 20 years, whether they were published in scientific journals/other or not!

[V87]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

I don`t think it`s enough to say "if it happens once it will happen again", we should have got past that stage by now, surely (guesswork, or "hope for the best")?
These days many of the results are in, there IS a "formula" for repeated breeding success over a number of generations with many species without the use of UVB bulbs as has already been explained. Those results ARE "scientific" in the sense they`ve been PROVEN to work time and time again over the last 15 to 20 years, whether they were published in scientific journals/other or not!

With regard to guess work .... And happening again .... it was kinda rhetorical question we have all seen articles over the years of monitors breeding in these kinds of awful conditions ....ie no substrate poor heating poor diet ...

[V87]

Originally Posted by formica

whether it is scientific, depends which question is actually being asked, if you are asking, can they breed without UV, then fine, but, I dont think that is the question that anyone is actually asking, its certainly not the question I am asking, and nor is it the question that Dr Fry was asking, or the OP, or any of the scientists who wrote the 3 papers which have been posted to this thread.

There is another question which should be asked in relation to breeding, how successful is breeding without UV, in comparison to with UV? how is it effected?

If you want a scientific answer to something, it must be quantifiable in some way or another, the only question which is being answered in the affirmative, is can monitors breed without UV, which imo, is not actually a very important question in the grand scheme of things - the question which has now been answered with a quantifiable certainty, does UV has a positive health benefit to monitors, has been answered in the affirmative

This ^^^^^^^^

Originally Posted by jarich

No, it wasn't a misconception. Simply because the health benefits aren't visible doesn't mean they aren't real.

This ^^^^^^^^