Close Call with a King Cobra - Page 5

bronxzoofrank · 12-12-12, 10:25 PM

Hello all,

I'm re-posting an earlier comment of mine below, for folks who may have missed - re private vs professional keepers; Concerning arrogance - I'm correcting misinformation and dangerous assumptions, based on a lifetime in the field, on the private side and as a herpetologist and, re the legalities of all, as an attorney (the deadliest creatures I've dealt with have been as an attorney in NYC!). It is not arrogant to offer to provide career advice; I have done so for decades, with some very rewarding results. That a reader does not wish to believe what I say does not render the offer arrogant. The comment below, posted earlier, sums up my thoughts re private keepers and includes some comments on the impossibility, in all cases of which I'm aware (basically, all reported bites that occurred here in the US, and many abroad, over a 20+ year period) of a private person being able to assure safety in the event of a snake bite. I won't begin (obviously!) to touch upon related matters - treating an ill snake, cage/home security, and all). Again re arrogance - I mention "my books" below - I have written books (popular) papers (peer reviewed) and so on...it's part of the job, and I enjoy such and have been fortunate and lucky in having had the opportunity to do so...apologies to those who might take the words "my books" as arrogant!

Re deleted comments - in an email notice, I saw one that used crude language; not an obscenity, but not the words of anyone I care to communicate with; I logged on, planning to report the post, but it had not been allowed through or was deleted already.

Earlier Post:
In every related article, and in the forward sections of each of my books, I stress that I started out and remain a private animal keeper, as do all good zoologists. I have always been involved in programs that include private folks, from rescuing 10,000+ turtles confiscated in HK to reintroducing a variety of creatures on privately owned land, and so on. Much of this work could not have been done w/o private participation. I continue to acknowledge the strides made in the husbandry of many species by private keepers, many of whom can devote more resources to specific creatures than do zoos, and who work with animals that are not kept in zoos. Here in the US, I'm in close contact with a number of talented and quite wealthy individuals who spend far more, in time and money, on the animals they work with than do most institutions.

However, the training, history, resources available etc in well-funded, well run zoos is indeed far greater than that available to most private folks. As regards venomous snakes, dangerous creatures, etc, that makes all the difference in the world. Please see my earlier comments, re the protocols that must be followed in zoos, the expenses involved, and the time factors that come into play after a bite. And, again, this is something I've been involved in, on both sides and with the best and least known people in the field, for decades...hands on, personally and professionally responsible for consequences, and so on.

Whether or not you choose to believe that training and all makes a difference, the bottom line is that, when bitten, a private keeper will be in much, much greater danger than will someone working in a well-run zoo. No way around that. Believing that someone is too careful, skilled etc to be bitten is unrealistic.

Please, this is just how things are, no need to take it personally,. Professionals are fortunate in being able to follow their passions, no doubt - but in most cases they also sacrifice a great deal (i.e. zoo/museum salaries, even at the highest levels, are unrealistic given the cost of living, in NYC). It is a small field, but there are options for many who wish to pursue such careers.
bronxzoofrank is online now Report Post Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message
Old 12-10-12, 07:32 PM

jarich · 12-12-12, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

Yeah, sometimes a little too much. You can't baby people into living longer because they are too stupid to keep themselves alive. There's a certain natural selection thing going on, or rather, should be, if you take a look at those chromosome lacking individuals...

Well, you're wrong.

And as far as antivenin, maybe things are different in other states, but here those will only be administered by an MD, regardless if you stock them or not. Paramedics will not administer it, and unless you've had it before, i'd consider you a fool to administer it yourself with the possibility of anaphylaxis killing you faster(species dependant).

Actually we do baby people into living longer; we do so because most people are obstinately stupid. This is a pretty good example of such, since I would say at least 90% of the people I have met who keep hots have no business doing so.

And in what way is Frank wrong? Or arrogant for that matter. You are talking to someone who has been professionally handling these cases for 20 plus years, and aside for Kim, all the rest of you just have vague personal opinions. He has books and literally decades of international research to back up his statements, while you are trying to say you feel a certain way and so that should be just as good as Frank's decades of dedicated research. Do you argue with your doctor about cancer treatment because you know someone who had cancer? There is a certain level of knowledge that trumps here and its pretty obvious who has it in this discussion. Im impressed you have taken the time to keep going with this, Frank.

While I dont necessarily think they should be illegal, I do think they should only be able to be kept with a very difficult to achieve license. I also think that they should require very cost prohibitive measures, like insurance and up-to-date anti venin at the local hospital for every species kept. However, thats just an opinion I have without knowing the facts like, say, a professional herpetologist.

Kim, I think you can probably understand that you are in the vast minority when it comes to hot keepers. And the reason that so many hot keepers have access to these animals is because they are not strictly controlled across the entire US. If only one state had those tight regulations you spoke of, it would make no difference. Idiots would hop across the state line and come back with their king cobra or gaboon viper, which happens all the time. You know of the example I told you about here where I walked into that guys apartment that had the cobra in his living room. Its totally illegal in NYC, but he bought it for $200 online and kept in in his apartment. That thing could have easily bit him, slipped into the ducts, and lived for quite some time free roaming and biting whomever it chose to. And that was one unhappy cobra, so Im sure it would have had a field day. Laws like this are not enacted for those who do things the best way they should be done, unfortunately. Laws are enacted because most people are stupid and require control so they dont harm others.

RandyRhoads · 12-13-12, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

And in what way is Frank wrong? .

"No private keeper has taken care of all of the above"

I can't speak for every idiot out there, but all the things on that last were pretty standard for keeping hots....

jarich · 12-13-12, 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bronxzoofrank

Hi all,

But aside from all that, look at it this way: how many venomous snake keeping private people have, on hand, the number of vials of the appropriate antivenin (at several thousand dollars per vial, and some of which is very hard to import, even for zoos -- last year, as a consultant, I had to hire Thai-speaking friends to track down money that had been spent by a major zoo for antivenin - process took 7 months, etc) on hand, the commitment of the local police dept or ambulance to respond instantly when notified, and a backup transportation method if that fails, the resources and a plan to get more antivenin choppered to the hospital if, as often happens, more is needed, a trained person present at all times when a cage is opened so that snake can be secured or killed and first aid can be started, this same person must know, and keep up with changes to, the care protocol which must be started as soon as a bite occurs...ie.. limiting spread of venom, process of which varies by group and in some cases by species (the victim cannot move after being bitten, lest venom circulate more quickly); instant updating on the many changes that occur re antivenin needed (snake venom composition evolves quite rapidly as prey species evolve defenses, and this greatly affects treatment), please understand - this is just a quick rambling and poorly worded, sorry) example of some of the considerations that need be addressed; in my long experience, and in among my contacts worldwide, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above).

In what way is this standard Randy? I dont know of any hot keeper Ive ever met that had all this in place. Granted Ive probably only met around 20, so my experience is limited, but thats a lot of requirements right there.

Plus, and more importantly, you chopped his quote up and didnt pay attention to the context of rest of the sentence. The full sentence there was this:

"In my long experience, and in among my world contacts, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above"

He didnt say none had anywhere, just that he has never come across one who has.

RandyRhoads · 12-13-12, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

"In my long experience, and in among my world contacts, no private keeper has taken care of all of the above"

He didnt say none had anywhere, just that he has never come across one who has.

You are right. But if he hasn't found a single person doing this the correct way, that makes me question his "experience" and what kind of people he does find. Not a single one had it right? That is hard to believe for someone working in the field for so long.

I mean it's more of a standard of necessary resources. Does someone really need countless CroFab vials on hand when they live across the street from a hospital with insane amounts of it because you live in rattlesnake country? Probablly not...

How is it a standard? Isn't most of that covered in the "hot school" thread combined with common sense and simple internet research?

infernalis · 12-13-12, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

You are right. But if he hasn't found a single person doing this the correct way, that makes me question his "experience" and what kind of people he does find. Not a single one had it right? That is hard to believe for someone working in the field for so long.

I mean it's more of a standard of necessary resources. Does someone really need countless CroFab vials on hand when they live across the street from a hospital with insane amounts of it because you live in rattlesnake country? Probablly not...

How is it a standard? Isn't most of that covered in the "hot school" thread combined with common sense and simple internet research?

Here you are speaking of an indigenous species of snake, so of course the local hospitals are geared up for snake bites from that (local) species.

Can you tell me that your local hospital has the proper anti venom for a king cobra on hand?? Or some other obscure species from half way around the world?

There is Timber Rattlesnakes & Massasauga rattlesnakes here in upstate New York, so our local hospital is geared for handling those, But I can all but guarantee they don't have the resources for some exotic, tropical animal that is only found somewhere very far away.

**Aaron_S** · 12-13-12, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

You are right. But if he hasn't found a single person doing this the correct way, that makes me question his "experience" and what kind of people he does find. Not a single one had it right? That is hard to believe for someone working in the field for so long.

I mean it's more of a standard of necessary resources. Does someone really need countless CroFab vials on hand when they live across the street from a hospital with insane amounts of it because you live in rattlesnake country? Probablly not...

How is it a standard? Isn't most of that covered in the "hot school" thread combined with common sense and simple internet research?

I'm going with Wayne on this but in a different direction.

This is hugely selfish of the keeper. Another reason I think private keepers SHOULDN'T have them. If you can't afford your own stock of CroFab, for local species then you shouldn't own them. Why should you drain the hospitals stock? It's there for the random kid or person who's hiking and gets bit. It is NOT for the private keeper because they screwed up a water change. Hot keepers who think like are selfish without thinking of the consequences of their actions. It could potentially kill a totally innocent child or person. Butterfly effect for sure.

infernalis · 12-13-12, 10:01 AM

I like that response too Aaron.

How many HMO, insurance plans, government health programs, etc.. are going to willingly pay for such a blunder.

I bet homeowners insurance underwriters would cancel the policy in a nanosecond once they discover hots inside the house.

And if they really wanted to be pricks, Children's protective services can show up at your house at any time, Heck I don't even keep hots and CPS showed up here demanding to see my snakes once because a neighbour called it in that they assumed I had hots.

Ever explain the difference between a pueblan milk and a coral snake to a social worker?

**lady_bug87** · 12-13-12, 10:22 AM

white touches black: friend of jack
red touches yellow: could kill a fellow?

**Aaron_S** · 12-13-12, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

I like that response too Aaron.

How many HMO, insurance plans, government health programs, etc.. are going to willingly pay for such a blunder.

I bet homeowners insurance underwriters would cancel the policy in a nanosecond once they discover hots inside the house.

And if they really wanted to be pricks, Children's protective services can show up at your house at any time, Heck I don't even keep hots and CPS showed up here demanding to see my snakes once because a neighbour called it in that they assumed I had hots.

Ever explain the difference between a pueblan milk and a coral snake to a social worker?

That's exactly why I don't have any tarantulas or scorpions or anything of the sort. Everything I keep is completely legal here in my house. That last thing I need is to have my daughter taken away from me because not only did I break the law but someone decided to use my hobby against me.

MDT · 12-13-12, 11:06 AM

this is an interesting discussion. as someone who has treated many many pit viper envenomations, i can say the cost one encounters is staggering. the reality is the "average joe" would not be able to obtain CroFab as you'd need Rx and several thousands of dollars to get just the loading dose. having worked in an urban ED for a number of years and being the consulting physician for our local zoo at one point for bites, the availability of old world elapid or viper anti venoms is up to the zoo itself. those meds are typically not kept in most hospitals (the exceptions would likely be in much larger, costal cities)....in oklahoma, if you get tagged by your cobra, you'll get treatment, but it will likely be delayed in trying to obtain the appropriate anti venom. it is a fact that zoos or research institutions will have many more resources than the individual keeper. i'm not advocating in keeping hots vs not keeping them, just saying that franks point about resources is valid. i really don't get the arrogance vibe from him.

to add: i really like your blog frank...thanks for sharing

**Aaron_S** · 12-13-12, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

this is an interesting discussion. as someone who has treated many many pit viper envenomations, i can say the cost one encounters is staggering. the reality is the "average joe" would not be able to obtain CroFab as you'd need Rx and several thousands of dollars to get just the loading dose. having worked in an urban ED for a number of years and being the consulting physician for our local zoo at one point for bites, the availability of old world elapid or viper anti venoms is up to the zoo itself. those meds are typically not kept in most hospitals (the exceptions would likely be in much larger, costal cities)....in oklahoma, if you get tagged by your cobra, you'll get treatment, but it will likely be delayed in trying to obtain the appropriate anti venom. it is a fact that zoos or research institutions will have many more resources than the individual keeper. i'm not advocating in keeping hots vs not keeping them, just saying that franks point about resources is valid. i really don't get the arrogance vibe from him.

to add: i really like your blog frank...thanks for sharing

Exactly why the majority of people shouldn't own them. Can't afford it. Tough.

I can't afford to race cars so tough poop for me for wanting to race cars..

RandyRhoads · 12-13-12, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Can you tell me that your local hospital has the proper anti venom for a king cobra on hand?? Or some other obscure species from half way around the world?
.

No. That's why I have said species dependant and it's a matter of the mandatory recources. That was one example where antivenin wouldn't be needed.

Maybe MDT can help with this one but I think you guys are putting too much into a private keeper stocking their own antivenin. Paramedics wont administer, and i'm pretty sure the ER doc will be hesitant on using something you just brought in with you. Aaron- I can almost promise you if you showed up with your own CroFab at an ER well stocked with it they will be using theirs, so that seems like a waste of not only the keepers money, but the overall stock of antivenin to me.

MoreliAddict · 12-13-12, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

No. That's why I have said species dependant and it's a matter of the mandatory recources. That was one example where antivenin wouldn't be needed.

Maybe MDT can help with this one but I think you guys are putting too much into a private keeper stocking their own antivenin. Paramedics wont administer, and i'm pretty sure the ER doc will be hesitant on using something you just brought in with you. Aaron- I can almost promise you if you showed up with your own CroFab at an ER well stocked with it they will be using theirs, so that seems like a waste of not only the keepers money, but the overall stock of antivenin to me.

Thing about anti-venom is that not only is it extremely expensive, but it expires within a few years. Can anyone confirm this?

Would cost $$$$ for a private keeper to keep any anti-venom on hand in the first place..

**Aaron_S** · 12-13-12, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoreliAddict

Thing about anti-venom is that not only is it extremely expensive, but it expires within a few years. Can anyone confirm this?

Would cost $$$$ for a private keeper to keep any anti-venom on hand in the first place..

Yes, but yet it costs a fortune to buy a ferrari yet people still do it and it deters people as well. I think this is my point.

Also, I'll have to dig it up but I did know of a couple keepers who had their own. A doctor would administer it at the hospital. If it was all legal, why not just keep it at the hospital with their stock? So they know it's legit...Oh right, right...people want to do it illegally.