I want to get a berm any info would be great

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Is it illegal to have a Burm in Nebraska or Lincoln? If not why would you have to give her up?

If I move to Colorado.
I believe its illegal to have the giants in Sarpy county in Omaha. Its one of the Omaha counties.

[exwizard]

That sucks. Of all the giants, Burms have the best temperment. I never understood the thinking behind making Burms illegal.

[AaronRiot]

GTA limit is 3 meters. Oshawa "area" is no boids. I agree it's "stupid". I also agree (from what I've heard) D&D barked up trees they should not have, not to mention the state of the shop was very below standard.

Regardless, if you do get caught, you get fined and your animal is taken from you. Where do you think an illegal 15ft snake will be taken up here? Or your 10ft boa for that matter?

I dunno, I don't see it as risking "getting caught" I see it as risking the life of an animal you've made the decision to be responsible for. Meh, but what do I know right?

I would saying the thinking behind making big snakes illegal is that people tend to be impulsive, and that people who have no business keeping big snakes / venomous / insert other potentially dangerous animal here decide to buy one in the moment, from a vender looking for a sale because they just want it so bad right then and there. Maybe the cool factor, maybe infatuation, maybe status. In the end there is danger to the owner and people around them (if not properly attended to) as well as a danger to the animal that will likely be given up once its luster wears off or it becomes too much to handle.

I think the laws are legitimate. I also think that serious keepers should be able to go through a lengthy permit process. But then, I'm glad they don't sell automatic pistols at the quik-e mart, maybe I'm a rare breed.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by AaronRiot

I think the laws are legitimate. I also think that serious keepers should be able to go through a lengthy permit process. But then, I'm glad they don't sell automatic pistols at the quik-e mart, maybe I'm a rare breed.

I agree, I've been saying this for a while. Are people still gonna get them without a permit? Sure, but it should at least keep 12 year olds from walking into the pet shop and coming home with a snake that's gonna be 7 feet within a year and 10+ by the next.

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by AaronRiot

GTA limit is 3 meters. Oshawa "area" is no boids. I agree it's "stupid". I also agree (from what I've heard) D&D barked up trees they should not have, not to mention the state of the shop was very below standard.

Regardless, if you do get caught, you get fined and your animal is taken from you. Where do you think an illegal 15ft snake will be taken up here? Or your 10ft boa for that matter?

I dunno, I don't see it as risking "getting caught" I see it as risking the life of an animal you've made the decision to be responsible for. Meh, but what do I know right?

I would saying the thinking behind making big snakes illegal is that people tend to be impulsive, and that people who have no business keeping big snakes / venomous / insert other potentially dangerous animal here decide to buy one in the moment, from a vender looking for a sale because they just want it so bad right then and there. Maybe the cool factor, maybe infatuation, maybe status. In the end there is danger to the owner and people around them (if not properly attended to) as well as a danger to the animal that will likely be given up once its luster wears off or it becomes too much to handle.

I think the laws are legitimate. I also think that serious keepers should be able to go through a lengthy permit process. But then, I'm glad they don't sell automatic pistols at the quik-e mart, maybe I'm a rare breed.

Several points I want to adress here. Here in Des Moines, we have a length limit of 6' unlessd you have a permit. This applies to all species. I have this permit which allows me to have everything the state allows. While I will probably never have a Burm, since Burms are legal in Iowa it is legal for me as well, even in Des Moines. I cant have Retics, Anacondas or African Rocks however since those species are outright banned in Iowa. I understand the reasoning behind needing a permit but other cities in the state dont even require this permit while still other cities dont allow snakes at all.

We are fortunate enough to have a guy who lives here in the metro by the name of Tom Weidner who has not only this permit but also a venemous permit so whenever a snake gets confiscated, he usually ends up with them. IMO this will guarantee that the snake in question will be well cared for and the need to euthanize is nill.

Ok the laws are legitimate. I wont argue that since they were passed in legitimate ways but most of the time these laws were passed by ignorant legislators who are reacting to fear and emotion rather than fact. The facts as I see them is that between cities that share borders there are contrasting snake ordinances yet there is no difference in the incidences that occur within the respective city limits.

All of that having been said, I want to steer back to the original request for info on Burms. I think they are great pets to have since of all the giants they have the best temperment, if youre prepared for their ultimate size. That includes having a secure enclosure that is big enough and also being willing to feed rabbits when their size requires it.

[AaronRiot]

Originally Posted by exwizard

Several points I want to adress here. Here in Des Moines, we have a length limit of 6' unlessd you have a permit. This applies to all species. I have this permit which allows me to have everything the state allows. While I will probably never have a Burm, since Burms are legal in Iowa it is legal for me as well, even in Des Moines. I cant have Retics, Anacondas or African Rocks however since those species are outright banned in Iowa. I understand the reasoning behind needing a permit but other cities in the state dont even require this permit while still other cities dont allow snakes at all.

We are fortunate enough to have a guy who lives here in the metro by the name of Tom Weidner who has not only this permit but also a venemous permit so whenever a snake gets confiscated, he usually ends up with them. IMO this will guarantee that the snake in question will be well cared for and the need to euthanize is nill.

Ok the laws are legitimate. I wont argue that since they were passed in legitimate ways but most of the time these laws were passed by ignorant legislators who are reacting to fear and emotion rather than fact. The facts as I see them is that between cities that share borders there are contrasting snake ordinances yet there is no difference in the incidences that occur within the respective city limits.

All of that having been said, I want to steer back to the original request for info on Burms. I think they are great pets to have since of all the giants they have the best temperment, if youre prepared for their ultimate size. That includes having a secure enclosure that is big enough and also being willing to feed rabbits when their size requires it.

My permit point - it causes pause. Person walks into expo. Person sees animal. Person wants animal. Breeder requests permit. Person does not have permit. Sale is denied. Person goes home, has time to think, makes a decision based on thinking rather than impulse. Just like a gun. Additionally, a breeder permit should be required. And fines should be high. In the thousands. Money makes people reconsider risk.

It would be nice if all cities had a bail out option for keepers to give away their animals to a safe place. Especially now that in the states certain species can't cross borders with you if you have to move in the next 30 years. Those in Des Moines are lucky to have Tom. IS there a Tom in every city? Obviously not.

"I want to steer back to the original request for info on Burms. I think they are great pets to have since of all the giants they have the best temperment, if youre prepared for their ultimate size. That includes having a secure enclosure that is big enough and also being willing to feed rabbits when their size requires it."

I agree. I would also say cheetahs may be the best of the big cats and if you're looking to get a bear go with a black one. The laws are put in place because there needs to be SOME management. I agree that the people that write the laws have no idea about whats up on this issue or many others. But there has to be something in place.

My point in posting in the first place is that the OP will put their animal at risk by simply purchasing it. For example. Burm grows to 14ft and gets an RI. OP cannot take the illegal animal to a vet in the GTA. So animal suffers or OP travels. If travel is chosen, the vet will know by address/ area code the OPs region, again putting the animal at risk. All it takes is one phone call.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by AaronRiot

My permit point - it causes pause. Person walks into expo. Person sees animal. Person wants animal. Breeder requests permit. Person does not have permit. Sale is denied. Person goes home, has time to think, makes a decision based on thinking rather than impulse. Just like a gun. Additionally, a breeder permit should be required. And fines should be high. In the thousands. Money makes people reconsider risk.

It would be nice if all cities had a bail out option for keepers to give away their animals to a safe place. Especially now that in the states certain species can't cross borders with you if you have to move in the next 30 years. Those in Des Moines are lucky to have Tom. IS there a Tom in every city? Obviously not.

"I want to steer back to the original request for info on Burms. I think they are great pets to have since of all the giants they have the best temperment, if youre prepared for their ultimate size. That includes having a secure enclosure that is big enough and also being willing to feed rabbits when their size requires it."

I agree. I would also say cheetahs may be the best of the big cats and if you're looking to get a bear go with a black one. The laws are put in place because there needs to be SOME management. I agree that the people that write the laws have no idea about whats up on this issue or many others. But there has to be something in place.

My point in posting in the first place is that the OP will put their animal at risk by simply purchasing it. For example. Burm grows to 14ft and gets an RI. OP cannot take the illegal animal to a vet in the GTA. So animal suffers or OP travels. If travel is chosen, the vet will know by address/ area code the OPs region, again putting the animal at risk. All it takes is one phone call.

All great points. Luckily the rat breeder in our state is currently acting as the safe haven for burms that are being surrendered. I don't know what would happen if he didn't. I may end up selling him my dwarf girl if I move, there will be no "giving" with her.

[Terranaut]

So for the past few days I have avoided this thread .I saw the title and figured it would be a roast so I didn't click it. Well today curiosity got the best of me and I read all of it. Glad it went from a roast to something better .

No boids in Oshawa is crap. KW isn't going that route and I hope it stays that way.


Back to the burm not berm. As stated above you can't go from small snakes to a burm without some sort of intermediate snake or you need a mentor to teach you how to handle it at the worst of times before you ever bring one home. End of story.

[AaronRiot]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Back to the burm not berm. As stated above you can't go from small snakes to a burm without some sort of intermediate snake or you need a mentor to teach you how to handle it at the worst of times before you ever bring one home. End of story.

+1. The mentor thing is what you see consistently in the venomous sector, as well as getting into working with other wild animals that can do serious damage... It baffles me why it's not stressed more with the monster snakes. Sure you may learn as you go and be fine, however, make that one mistake.....

(I've never owned an animal over 9ft. I will own a retic at some point, somewhere where it is legal - I'm in the 3m GTA, and before I get involved I'll be settled and have gained experience with a lrg. adult. If those criteria are not met I do not feel that it would be a responsible 30+ year commitment. My opinion is the same with regards to venomous animals. I figured I should share where I'm coming from rather than spouting off opinions from thin air.)

Spiderman's uncle said it best lol "With great power comes great responsibility."

Yeah Oshawa is the last small city that has the blanket ban in the area, or so I've heard.

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by AaronRiot

My permit point - it causes pause. Person walks into expo. Person sees animal. Person wants animal. Breeder requests permit. Person does not have permit. Sale is denied. Person goes home, has time to think, makes a decision based on thinking rather than impulse. Just like a gun. Additionally, a breeder permit should be required. And fines should be high. In the thousands. Money makes people reconsider risk.

"I want to steer back to the original request for info on Burms. I think they are great pets to have since of all the giants they have the best temperment, if youre prepared for their ultimate size. That includes having a secure enclosure that is big enough and also being willing to feed rabbits when their size requires it."

I agree. I would also say cheetahs may be the best of the big cats and if you're looking to get a bear go with a black one. The laws are put in place because there needs to be SOME management. I agree that the people that write the laws have no idea about whats up on this issue or many others. But there has to be something in place.

My point in posting in the first place is that the OP will put their animal at risk by simply purchasing it. For example. Burm grows to 14ft and gets an RI. OP cannot take the illegal animal to a vet in the GTA. So animal suffers or OP travels. If travel is chosen, the vet will know by address/ area code the OPs region, again putting the animal at risk. All it takes is one phone call.

First point: A permit process would be great but in order gfor me to get this permit, I had to take a class on the care of big snakes. Thats all well and good but this class is rarely offered so if someone wanted to take this class they are S.O.L. I doubt that this class will be given again anytime soon.

Second point: Equating Burms with Cheetahs and Black Bears is irreleveant because those are obviously wild animals and the keeping of wild animals should be illegal IMO.

Third point: I agree with you on this one. An illegal snake does make it tougher as far as vet visits are concerned but what about in areas where Burms are legal? That issue then becomes null.

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Back to the burm not berm. As stated above you can't go from small snakes to a burm without some sort of intermediate snake or you need a mentor to teach you how to handle it at the worst of times before you ever bring one home. End of story.

Would Black Betty count as an intermediate snake or is she also considered a giant even though shes a Dum at 9 1/2' long?

Originally Posted by AaronRiot

+1. The mentor thing is what you see consistently in the venomous sector, as well as getting into working with other wild animals that can do serious damage... It baffles me why it's not stressed more with the monster snakes. Sure you may learn as you go and be fine, however, make that one mistake.....

(I've never owned an animal over 9ft. I will own a retic at some point, somewhere where it is legal - I'm in the 3m GTA, and before I get involved I'll be settled and have gained experience with a lrg. adult. If those criteria are not met I do not feel that it would be a responsible 30+ year commitment. My opinion is the same with regards to venomous animals. I figured I should share where I'm coming from rather than spouting off opinions from thin air.)

I never questioned our venemous laws. (Btw the permit requirements for venemous are next to impossible to attain here)Even if they were legal, I would never own them. It goes back to what I said before numerous times, "I wont keep a snake I cant handle" and venemous obviously fits that bill.

Before I finish these points, I also want to point out that all Im doing here is explaining my opinions and how I came to these opinions. Others will have different opinions and Im ok with that.

[AaronRiot]

Originally Posted by exwizard

First point: A permit process would be great but in order gfor me to get this permit, I had to take a class on the care of big snakes. Thats all well and good but this class is rarely offered so if someone wanted to take this class they are S.O.L. I doubt that this class will be given again anytime soon.

Second point: Equating Burms with Cheetahs and Black Bears is irreleveant because those are obviously wild animals and the keeping of wild animals should be illegal IMO.

Third point: I agree with you on this one. An illegal snake does make it tougher as far as vet visits are concerned but what about in areas where Burms are legal? That issue then becomes null.

If you can't wait for a permit then you are acting impulsively and have no business owning _______ that requires a permit. If there was a long wait time all the better, it weeds out the garden.

Two. Yes a cheetah or a bear or a cobra or an eagle or an elephant or a retic or an afrok or a burm or a salty all are very much in the same category of WILD ANIMALS THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO KILL YOU. To say a burm is not a wild animal is ridiculous. You may feel that way because you view them as a pet like a domesticated cat or dog. They are not such. They may not be as aggressive as a WC but that does not make them domestic. A 6th generation lion in a zoo is still a wild animal. If you have the blanket opinion that wild animals should be illegal that includes reptiles my friend.

People have this funny ability to personify animals they personally like as being friendly. Unfortunately this is a dangerous habit. This is especially true for the more reactionary animals, like snakes that have a feeding response that is triggered rather than chosen.

Obviously if burms are legal in ______ area the point I made is void. However, within the context of this thread that is not the case and encountering a health issue will lead to a moderate risk should the OP move forward in their acquisition.

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by exwizard

First point:


Would Black Betty count as an intermediate snake or is she also considered a giant even though shes a Dum at 9 1/2' long?
.

Was she that big when you got her? I would think she would qualify in my mind. A boa of any size IMHO is still not a burm. Also don't forget the growth rate of a burm.
So regardless of laws or whatever I still don't think this is a good idea at all with no disrespect intended towards the OP.

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by AaronRiot

If you can't wait for a permit then you are acting impulsively and have no business owning _______ that requires a permit. If there was a long wait time all the better, it weeds out the garden.

Two. Yes a cheetah or a bear or a cobra or an eagle or an elephant or a retic or an afrok or a burm or a salty all are very much in the same category of WILD ANIMALS THAT HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO KILL YOU. To say a burm is not a wild animal is ridiculous. You may feel that way because you view them as a pet like a domesticated cat or dog. They are not such. They may not be as aggressive as a WC but that does not make them domestic. A 6th generation lion in a zoo is still a wild animal. If you have the blanket opinion that wild animals should be illegal that includes reptiles my friend.

People have this funny ability to personify animals they personally like as being friendly. Unfortunately this is a dangerous habit. This is especially true for the more reactionary animals, like snakes that have a feeding response that is triggered rather than chosen.

Obviously if burms are legal in ______ area the point I made is void. However, within the context of this thread that is not the case and encountering a health issue will lead to a moderate risk should the OP move forward in their acquisition.

I feel like Im debating Aaron S, so I will stop now because there is no end to that. Have fun with your opinions because they are not mine.

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Was she that big when you got her? I would think she would qualify in my mind. A boa of any size IMHO is still not a burm. Also don't forget the growth rate of a burm.
So regardless of laws or whatever I still don't think this is a good idea at all with no disrespect intended towards the OP.

I agree with your last statement for someone with no experience with big snakes and to answer your question, Black Betty was that size when I got her. I was just curious if she qualified as an intermediate size snake or not. I will not get a Burm anytime soon because I just dont have the cage space for one. That having been said, they are legal here and I find them personally facinating. The OP on the other hand is not in that situation as Burms are illegal there so in that case I would strongly advise against acquiring one until he is in an area that allows them.

[AaronRiot]

Originally Posted by exwizard

I feel like Im debating Aaron S, so I will stop now because there is no end to that. Have fun with your opinions because they are not mine.

Gladly concession accepted.

A final thought, exwizard, sometimes opinions blur facts. With that being said, many of my points were opinion. The wild animal bit is fact. A burmese python is a wild animal. The inability to comprehend this is a potentially dangerous pipe dream. It can kill you, and will not/ cannot think twice about doing so if the stimulus warrants the reaction.


To the OP and anyone else, I am fully for keeping these animals, any animal for that matter, as long as it is a well thought out, planned decision. One must take responsibility for their actions and mitigate risks appropriately both to themselves as well as the captive.