Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[formica]

Originally Posted by red ink

Actually...
If you can't answer it in your experiment or test for it then don't make a point of it. If you factor it in as a basis knowing you can't test it or prove it... it ain't science, it's speculations. By all means ask away just don't call it science... it's just a question.

It is not 'factored in', it is part of a range of reasons why this whole topic is worth investigating. The only science in this, are the reasons behind it and the information used to model the environment. as I said clearly at the start, the limitations of this mean that it will not provide any conclusive scientific proof, thats not upto me to do.

[mdfmonitor]

Monitors continue to look for food if kept at optimum conditions, but they soon decide there's no food in the enclosure & they reduce activity till food comes along, seen it many times.

If you fed mice all the time why look for insects in the cage! no point, if you don't leave food around in the viv hid before they rise why look for it!! no point.

they are not daft, when it comes to food.

[formica]

Happy to report that after a short dry season simulation, my Sav is in perfect health, some weight loss, as to be expected, (1.02kg before, 1.012kg after)

now that the humidity has been increased outside of his high-humidity box, activity and apatite has increased significantly over the last week.

I have added lots of seeds (bird seed and grass seed), and enclosure is gettng ''rain'' every day in the afternoon, I havent increased feeding yet, I will do that once the seeds start to sprout, although there are a fair few crickets in the enclosure anyway that have been happily breeding away

Originally Posted by Terranaut

I do have a question....who owns the oldest captive monitor and how do they keep it? Personally when and if I do get a monitor this would be my guide and not nature.

15 this year - according to the results so far on the Savannah Monitor Longevity Survey, it has been kept with access to Sunlight for UV, a 120f basking spot, and, both cooler and drier seasonal variations.

[Rudiman]

I will go on record and say I don't care for this at all.

Scott

[formica]

Originally Posted by Rudiman

I will go on record and say I don't care for this at all.

Scott

dont care for what? that he survived in good health?

or that the oldest recorded captive Sav in the survey so far, also goes thru dry and cool seasons, and has somehow made it to 15 years old? ...while many that are kept at ''optimum'' conditions are lucky to live to 10

well I can see why that wouldn't sit well with many people

[MDT]

So...your study group has an "N" of 1?

[formica]

Originally Posted by MDT

So...your study group has an "N" of 1?

what study group?

[Rudiman]

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by Rudiman

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

Ding ding ding!!!!!
Winner, winner, chicken dinner!!!!!


And therefore, results speculative and certainly no conclusions may be drawn.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by Rudiman

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

I used to live on 7000+ calories per day therefore i conclude that all adult males will be perfectly healthy with a similar calorific intake.......

[Akuma223]

Originally Posted by Rudiman

There you go.....a single animal is not a study group.

+1, It isn't a proper experiment without a study group.

[formica]

why is this irrelevant argument being brought up again? what has it got to do with anything I am doing?

Or is it just another diversionary tactic, because the oldest Sav in the survey is 15 years old and has been kept with dry and cool cycles....its funny how people are able to ignore things like this to suit their own agenda. but, its also a predictable response when dogmatic and unscientific opinions are held, esp when they are questioned.

Here are some facts for you:

15 year old Sav, kept with dry and cool seasons in between ''optimal'', still alive today
9 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today
8 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today

additionally, 3 Savs died at ~5 years old, despite being kept in ''optimal'' conditions.


I hope over the next 9-12 months much more data can be collected, the target of 1000 animals is a long way off, but the survey continues.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by formica

why is this irrelevant argument being brought up again? what has it got to do with anything I am doing?

Or is it just another diversionary tactic, because the oldest Sav in the survey is 15 years old and has been kept with dry and cool cycles....its funny how people are able to ignore things like this to suit their own agenda. but, its also a predictable response when dogmatic and unscientific opinions are held, esp when they are questioned.

Here are some facts for you:

15 year old Sav, kept with dry and cool seasons in between ''optimal'', still alive today
9 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today
8 year old Sav, kept with cool season in between ''optimal'', still alive today

additionally, 3 Savs died at ~5 years old, despite being kept in ''optimal'' conditions.


I hope over the next 9-12 months much more data can be collected, the target of 1000 animals is a long way off, but the survey continues.

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

Is the person who has never had a crash still right that driving drunk is safe and doesn't cause incidents? No they are not. A single (or 3) animals don't make a brand new rule.

Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume. Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets? Held in the same enclosures? Given the exact same barometric pressures? Were they all collected/bought from the same place? Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line? Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death? Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept. Happens to all animals, why would savannah monitors be any different?

All factors that could change any "scientific" research.

By all means, go ahead and do it because you will anyway but until you are able to control pretty much every facet of the "experiment" it will never prove anything.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

dont care for what? that he survived in good health?

or that the oldest recorded captive Sav in the survey so far, also goes thru dry and cool seasons, and has somehow made it to 15 years old? ...while many that are kept at ''optimum'' conditions are lucky to live to 10

well I can see why that wouldn't sit well with many people

Hi, considering your monitor is still only around ONE YEAR old (or less?), to suggest it "survived in good health" is ludicrous, it`s also meaningless because you have no idea what "healthy" means for any captive Varanid.....

[formica]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

It is relevant because one animal (or 3) can be an exception to a rule. Just like a single person can drive drunk every single weekend and never experience an incident and then another guy does it once and kills someone.

yes of course there are exceptions, I posted a thread called ''anomalies'', about that very topic, in relation to the survey. 3 exceptions on the other hand, is something worth investigating.

Besides, you are taking surveys from around the globe I presume.

yes, worldwide

Are the 6 animals you mentioned being fed the same diets?

yes, 50/50 inverts/whole prey (question is in survey)

Held in the same enclosures?

yes, all enclosures, apart from the oldest, where 6ft or larger, with soil/sand substrate for burrows. the oldest had soil/sand which was not deep enough for burrows. all had the same ambient humidity of 60%, all had the same basking spot tempreture (except the oldest, at 120), and all where provided with UV

(various questions in survey to determine husbandry)

Given the exact same barometric pressures?

this question was not asked, if the consensus is that this would be an important question to ask, then it will be added to the list for when the final validation take place.

Were they all collected/bought from the same place?

so far all but 5 entries have been Wild Farmed or Wild Caught Hatchlings, 3 where CB, and 2 listed as unknown origin

Were they all raised from babies or were some "rescues" some months down the line?

not specifically asked, can be added later on depending on consensus regarding its importance.

Have all of them been regularly vet checked and a necropsy done to see cause of death?

3 of the Savs entered into the database as deceased had been examined by a vet after death, 2 others had known medical problems diagnosed by vets prior to death.

(questions relating to death and professional consultations are included in the survey)

Maybe those 3 had cancer or some sort of illness that had nothing to do with how they were kept.

one Sav died at the age of 7 from cancer, the 3 listed above all died suddenly but cause of death was not found

(cause of death, as determined by a vet, is asked in the survey)

All factors that could change any "scientific" research.

there are far more factors than that, as many as possible where included in the survey to get as clear a picture as possible of the husbandry, source of the animal, veterinary involvement and other areas


i'm not the idiot you would like to think I am