Feed Guide for Newbies (Rats v Mice)

[smy_749]

That is a huge ball. lol

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Chris72

From a food item perspective: they don't eat rabbit in the wild so that's why I said there is no reason. It "feels" like it makes sense for a large, older, snake as the macro nutrient makeup seems to be a better fit for an older animal with (perhaps) a slowing metabolism. Just like with people I suppose.

But if they needed rabbit as established adults they would change their diet to include a large amount if rabbit. Lots of animals modify their diet with age....ball pythons on the wild don't really. They keep eating mostly rats.

That's why I thought there is no reason to feed rabbit to a large female. If they needed what rabbit has to offer they would hunt lots of rabbit.

Can you tell me where you are getting your data on their wild diet? It seems like you've been led to believe ball pythons are some sort of specialized hunter in the wild, when all evidence shows that this is not the case. Their main food source in some parts of their habitat (which is wide and varied) is rat, some other areas it is birds, and in still others it is gerbils, shrews, mice or other rodents. This seems as much based on prey availability as anything else however, given that this is merely the majority of their diet in those various areas and not restrictive to the species. Their wild hunting habits show that they will eat just about any small mammal or bird they can get their mouths around, and that it is both sexual and size based. In the wild, they are a very successful species, able to adapt well to different prey and environments.

Terranaut, dont worry I have looked up the nutritional content of rabbit and the other food sources too. (Incidentally, I wonder if you have looked at the nutritional content of whole rabbit as compared to the more common results wherein eviscerated carcasses or just the meat are used. If you are talking about human consumption, that is a perfect comparison to use against chicken or beef. However, within the context of python nutrition, the whole rabbit, with its skin, organs, head etc, is the better comparison when trying to discuss differences with rats and other whole prey items) My questioning of him saying it was a better nutritional food source was meant to look at the line of thinking involved in that assessment however. To say that rat is better than mouse because it has more fat, but then say rabbit is better than rat because it has less fat, and that either is better because it has more protein, shows a limited understanding of nutrition requirements. Your ball python is never lacking for protein with any of these food sources, so the difference between 55% and 60% protein is inconsequential. While higher fat may be a good thing with some snakes (say a cycling female) it may also be something to limit with others (say an older snake, as mentioned). So saying that food item A is better than food item B is a little too simplistic and rigid in my opinion.

Again, my questioning in this thread is not meant to be discouraging, but rather to try to expand the process and understanding of what's being discussed. There is nothing lacking in any of those food sources for a python, be it rabbit, rat or mouse. So discouraging one or saying that new keepers who feed mice are not doing as good a job is propagating a misunderstanding. I have a GTP who I have never been able to get to switch over to rats. I assure you it gets all the nutrients it needs from the mice, though its slightly less convenient for me as a keeper. The same is true for balls. Though it might be a little more of a pain in the butt for the keeper to feed mice, there is absolutely no shortcoming nutritionally to doing so.

[Chris72]

Jarich,

As stated in the Original Post: The intention of this thread was not to have a full on debate on the merits of differing food items. Also in the O.P. is made an effort to recognize and respect those that choice to feed mice.

Additionally: This post will mark the second time I am asking you that we move a full on food choice brawl out to a different thread. Please consider starting a thread called "food fight".

Previously stated information on Adult Rats:
As higher in fat and protein being beneficial. Those numbers are what they are and there is no arguing them nor their benefits to an animal like a ball python. (As I have stated above.)

The Rabbit Babble:
I fear that you didn't read everything written. What I said was:

"It "feels" like it makes sense for a large, older, snake as the macro nutrient makeup seems to be a better fit for an older animal with (perhaps) a slowing metabolism. Just like with people I suppose."

However leaner food items are better suited for established adult humans because we tend to go from bed to shower to car to office to car to couch then bed again. (Society in general).

Personally I cannot see the same thing being true for something like a ball python as it still continues to grow for most of its life and it is going to out at night doing its thing. So one would surmise a drop in metabolism is not going to accord. This is anecdotal of course.

More to the point:
If there are areas where ball pythons are eating a diet high in lean food items I please PM me that information. For what I read they stick to, mostly, rats in the wild which have a higher fat content. For the same reason sharks eat whale blubber when they have the chance. Calorically rich. (9cal/g of fat Vs protein and fiber(carb) which is 4cal/g)

The point of the thread is mainly to benefit newbie’s with newly purchased snakes>>as noted above.

Before I said a word I recognized those that prefer mice in an attempt to show respect for that choice. Although I’m simply looking at the numbers. (In god we trust, all others must provide data!!)

I was hoping we could add more useful ideas to benifit newbies and feeding here...so if we cna get back to that it would be great.

The thread was not intended to be an in-depth brawl on rodent choice as I made clear in the O.P. (we can do that elsewhere please)

[Terranaut]

If I may add to this Chris my simple answer has nothing to do with a limited understanding of nutrient content of food and seeing as I don't see many people feeding cows to thier snakes it was quite obvious I was comparing human consumption in that text. I kept it simple seeing as the title states it's for newer handlers. Someone is just looking to argue I think

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Rabbit has great protien with low fat. If you look it up like I did you realize how much better it is compared to beef,pork,chicken or turkey for humans too. This is why we eat it weekly now. It's an awesome meat period.

This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.



Chris, so apparently I'm confused. You dont want any disagreement, but you want to say that one is better. You clearly called the thread Rats VS Mice, as in you want to compare them. You clearly said there were two goals in this thread, to compare the merits of rats vs mice, and to show the appropriate sized prey to feed. Then you plainly go on to state that you feel rats are better. Had you simply made the thread about the amount being fed, I wouldn't have probably said anything. Thats not what you did though, you clearly say rats are better and more natural, and neither of those is necessarily the case.

We share a similar desire though, that being that newbies are not confused and get taught something incorrectly, thus affecting the way they care for their snakes. (I suppose the difference between us though is that it seems youre still one of those newbies.) Some people have a hard time getting rats, others have a hard time switching over their snakes to rats. Ive talked with people who have starved their snakes for the sake of forcing it to take rats because they were told that was all they should be feeding. So you see, there is reason to make clear that any of these feeder prey are fine, and useful to show newbies that the choice is one of convenience for the owner and nothing more.

If you would like, we can start a new thread where we discuss the merits of each, but as you chose to take sides in this thread, it only seems logical to have it be here that I discuss why thats not necessarily the case. Again, since you clearly have taken sides, why would you be adverse to defending that position in the same thread? Im not being unreasonable or aggressive that Im aware of, merely questioning your assertions and assumptions. It seems like if your statements cant stand up to reasonable disagreement, then perhaps a little more research was in order first.

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by jarich

This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.



Chris, so apparently I'm confused. You dont want any disagreement, but
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perhaps a little more research was in order first.

Not my opinions at all. Simply presenting the data as it stands. Mice are not a bad feed by any stretch of the imagination however, as the data shows, rats are a better nutritional selection.

I had gathered allot of information over a period of time and the O.P. is simply what I found. (Yes it stands up...not hard for data to stand on its own...and I don’t think I offered any speculation.)

To that point I would like to see a newbie (lurker or not) feeding the proper size rat to the Ball...not whatever the kid at Pet Smart said.

Please consider looking for nutritional data on why mice are the superior food choice and open a thread on that subject for all to comment on. I will be happy to take part as long as it doesn’t turn into a fight.

As previously stated, I’m not interested in a brawl. (That 4 times now)

I found your last post insulting. I opened with a little respect to mice feeders, and more than a few times I have specified there is nothing wrong with that. As the data shows, rats are better if both options are available and feasible. That said; To date I have not seen any "reasonable disagreements" with data to back up the thinking.

I have kept various reptiles and breed exotic bird for decades. I am not a "newbie" but thank you for offing that.

Please feed you snakes mice...I am finished with this conversation. (Egarly waiting to read the thread on Mice)

Highest Regards,
C.

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by jarich

This was the reason for my including you in the response man, nothing more. I have no desire to argue about which is better, as I have stated very clearly that I think all these food items are perfectly acceptable.

Well I get a little offended when people tell I have a limited understanding about things. As far as which is better...where I live I get more food for my money with rabbits but not all of my snakes eat them (size). The snakes I feed rabbit to are adults and I preffer lean healthy snakes over fat pudding blobs so less fat and thus less total calories is better for them. My others all get rats and I will say rats are superior to mice for one reason....cost. Now if you have a corn or a garter or any small snake that will not need to eat anything larger than an adult mouse then cost would never be an issue. An adult carpet (for example) eating a bunch of mice at a time will cost more than one big rat(at least here it would).
Nutritionaly the differences are very small and I doubt a snakes health or quality of life would suffer from only being fed one or the other.
So I guess the term "better" is true but only relative to the context it is used. So for me cheaper is better. For others leaner is better and for some availability is better.
I still think Chris did a good job with this and will be telling newer keepers to read it.

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Well I get a little offended when people tell I have a limited understanding about things. As far as which is better...where I live I get more food for my money with rabbits but not all of my snakes eat them (size).

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I still think Chris did a good job with this and will be telling newer keepers to read it.

Thanks Dan.
And thanks to those who offered some kudos or constructive input.

(What was that talk of needed another Mod to keep the peace when peace breaks down...?...yeah,
That!...I vote Aaron.)

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by Chris72

Thanks Dan.
And thanks to those who offered some kudos or constructive input.

(What was that talk of needed another Mod to keep the peace when peace breaks down...?...yeah,
That!...I vote Aaron.)

I don't think this got out of control. If all parties put a little water on the fire will go out. No mod required. There is a fine line between moderator and goderator. You have to allow things to go their course sometimes even if it is not what you want to read. You will know when peace has broken down. It goes south pretty quick. PM's start flying and people get banned. This thread is no where near that. Someone just needs to learn how to talk to people without being rude where no rudeness should be.

[Chris72]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

I don't think this got out of control. If all parties put a little water on the fire will go out. No mod required. There is a fine line between moderator and goderator. You have to allow things to go their course sometimes even if it is not what you want to read. You will know when peace has broken down. It goes south pretty quick. PM's start flying and people get banned. This thread is no where near that. Someone just needs to learn how to talk to people without being rude where no rudeness should be.

Agreed. Have seen that happen for no reason on other forums and there is no reason for a fire in the first place. thats why I am making a large effort to not get pulled in. I really didnt want all the negative, empty, garbage to foul the thread.

Additional input that built on the basic info provided, with data for context, where applicable would have just made the thread better. Unfortunately that takes effort and time.

Too bad it’s too easy to heckle blindly from a corner.

[jarich]

Dan, it appears we react the same way. My reaction was to you saying I hadnt looked something up at all, which I suppose was how you similarly reacted when I suggested likewise to you. I will admit I was a little offended at your initial suggestion too. My apologies for making it about that.


Again, where is the brawl though Chris? It is not my intention to 'break the peace' but to try to correct a error. As far as Im concerned, we are simply having a discussion about husbandry practices, which is what these forums are meant for. Im sorry if you feel like Im attacking you personally or being rude, that is not my intention at all. Im a New Yorker, so maybe I get a little abrupt sometimes. If Ive been rude here, I do apologize. You may not understand the irony of saying Aaron should be the one to keep the peace with me, as you are new here, but feel free to ask him about it. Normally Im the one protecting others from him.

But back to the information. You saying that the data speaks for itself shows a lack of the context it would be part of however. For instance, did you notice that an adult mouse has about 4 times as much vitamin A as a rat? Now I could say that this is a vitamin that is key for things like bone growth, immunity function, cell differentiation (very important during growth) and vision. All good things for a growing snake, right? I could use that as an argument that mice are 'better' if I didnt understand the context. However, Im aware that most of that vitamin A is actually just excreted anyway, and that there is more than enough Vitamin A in rats for a snakes nutritional requirements also. Like Ive said many times, I dont think mice are better. I think they are all perfectly acceptable prey items and all fulfill the nutritional requirements for the pythons.

There is a similar lack of context when you try to say rats are better. There is a context that needs to be considered for your data. Lets look at fat for instance, since you used it as a major indicator of how rats are macro nutritionally superior. You say that rats have higher fat content and therefore are better. We arent talking about wild animals who have to be worried about caloric intake however; quite the opposite actually. We are discussing captive reptiles (who in the animal kingdom comparatively have a very low metabolism in general) who sit in a small cage and do very little. They are fed on a regular basis, and when using any of the prey items we have discussed, have access to more than enough fat to meet their nutritional caloric intake. If anything, in this context, it could be stated that more fat content is a detrimental thing, not a beneficial one.

You then went on to state that a sub adult rat has statistically higher Iron (Fe) and Zinc (Zn). Now here your numbers are simply wrong. There is more Iron in mice than rats, and only a slight variation in Zn, depending on the age of comparison. Again though, putting it in context shows that there is no reason to consider these as both meet the nutritional requirements of these animals, and so the slightly higher amount is inconsequential either way.

Then there is the actual data itself. You only stated the source for one of your sets of numbers, that of RodentPro. Now they got their chart from a comparative study done in 2002. If you did look up the study and read it, you will see that RodentPro only shows part of the study, and that there is great variability on some of those things. Even the diet of the various study groups has an effect, though not as much as one might think.

The point is, its not a cut and dry thing and by no means can you say that this is simply where the data stands. RodentPros chart is a good guide to use in a general sense, but hardly the end all and be all of the discussion. Rats, mice, rabbits, gerbils, they all meet and exceed the requirements for these pythons. Its the quantity that needs to be considered, and you seem to have done a good job of speaking about that as regards one of the food items, rats. Just be a little more open to the possibility of getting to the same end in different ways, thats all Im asking.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Chris72

Agreed. Have seen that happen for no reason on other forums and there is no reason for a fire in the first place. thats why I am making a large effort to not get pulled in. I really didnt want all the negative, empty, garbage to foul the thread.

Additional input that built on the basic info provided, with data for context, where applicable would have just made the thread better. Unfortunately that takes effort and time.

Too bad it’s too easy to heckle blindly from a corner.

Oh and for the sake of the peace, Ill not react to you telling me multiple times in this thread that Im "babbling" or "empty" or "blindly" saying "garbage". You seem like a fairly smart guy, so Im sure you'll soon pick up on the fact that none of those are accurate descriptions applicable to me. Admittedly, I do like a good debate as I think it often spurs more research for both parties, but we can disagree without the need to resort to insult. I always try to make sure its not personal and only about the research. Please try to do the same.

[Chris72]

Perfect. Thank you sir.


Note: The second thing I mentioned before I even started in the Original Post:

" I offer this thread with 100% certainty that there are keepers who have healthy happy Royals with feeding programs that are largely different. This thread is not intended to challenge you. Rather it is intended to benefit the animals housed by those who have takes Pet Smart at face value on proper care. Be nice; we are on the same team people!
"

Before I started I made a clear and premeditated effort to recognize those who choose mice in order to avoid this kind of a break down. I understand your choice and respect that. If you think mice are superior; let’s see that data in a food choice thread.

Highest Regards,
C.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Chris72

Thanks Dan.
And thanks to those who offered some kudos or constructive input.

(What was that talk of needed another Mod to keep the peace when peace breaks down...?...yeah,
That!...I vote Aaron.)

You don't want Aaron because he'd boot your whining can so fast. What are you crying for? Just because you are making assertive claims that aren't 100% true?

Doesn't a 40g mouse have more fat than a 40g rat? Don't they also have more calcium?

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Chris72

Perfect. Thank you sir.


Note: The second thing I mentioned before I even started in the Original Post:

" I offer this thread with 100% certainty that there are keepers who have healthy happy Royals with feeding programs that are largely different. This thread is not intended to challenge you. Rather it is intended to benefit the animals housed by those who have takes Pet Smart at face value on proper care. Be nice; we are on the same team people!
"

Before I started I made a clear and premeditated effort to recognize those who choose mice in order to avoid this kind of a break down. I understand your choice and respect that. If you think mice are superior; let’s see that data in a food choice thread.

Highest Regards,
C.

Im not sure what breakdown you are talking about.

Let me be clear again, I do not think mice are superior. I dont choose to feed mice. I actually hate mice, as they are dirty, smelly, and a huge pain to breed. Out of all my snakes, I have only one who is picky and doesnt take rats. Rats are more convenient to feed my larger snakes, and for some people like Dan, they are also cheaper. My only point this whole time was to refute your claim that rats are nutritionally superior to other rodents for feeding pythons. I have done so, with evidence above. If you really need me to, I can give you a list of some articles to read in order to understand this better, but again it will not be to show mice are better. Rather they will show that both are pretty much the same, both more than fulfill the nutritional requirements of these pythons, and there is only keeper preferences to consider.