The Savannah Monitor Diet thread..

[jarich]

When I lived out in Colorado we used to have these huge ones a few inches long and fat. Would be great to have those around now.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by jarich

As to whether it is essential to feed mice, lets be honest, no, it isn't. I know of monitor keepers who have bred solely on inverts.

Josh, you and I agree on a lot and I love you bro, but seriously, do you know anyone who successfully kept or bred large monitor species on a strict insect only diet? Not that you are BSing. I would say whoever told you they did was BSing. I only know of 2 people in the US who bred savannahs in captivity and they all used mice in the diet.

I can see this being possible with Aussie dwarf species but not with larger species of varanids like savannahs. From my personal experience, mice are needed. We even feed our dwarfs rodents a couple of times a week.

[mo9e64]

Their biology of requiring high basking temps to metabolize,is a way of expanding what you can feed them in captivity.When we provide our monitors with what they need their potential in many areas increases-diet ,healing, growth and reproduction are examples.

[BarelyBreathing]

Here's how I think about it. I'm going to use dogs as a baseline, because I've actually studied canine nutrition (as in I studied it in college, not as a hobby).

For a very long time, the standard in dog food used to be (and sometimes it is still used) high in grain, high in by-products with very little nutrition. Can dogs live on it? Absolutely! Can they breed several generations down on this type dog food? Absolutely! Is it healthy for them? Only a fool will say yes. Canine nutritionists, vets, pet owners, breeders, and scientists have extensively studied the difference between these still common, once accepted "healthy" foods and these new, natural grain free diets. It's not up for debate that dogs who are given grain free diets have less digestive problems, less skin irritation, live longer, have healthier joints, are more active, and even mentally more sound than those dogs given dog food that is high in grains.

So why should it be any different with other species of animals? Yes, I'm aware that I can't provide the exact diet of a wild savannah monitor based on where I'm located at. However, I can simulate it. I can provide foods for them that are nutritionally the same. I don't have to add foods that are too high in fat to fit in to their natural diet in order for my monitors to remain healthy.

[Jay]

Where do you get your info?

[Pirarucu]

Here's my take on feeding insects being "unsuccessful". People have started saying that the reason Savs fed a rodent diet die is their improper conditions, not their diet. Could it not be true for an all insect diet as well? Could it be that the reason no insect fed savs breed is their housing, not their diet?
I hear you people saying you don't know anyone who has successfully bred them on an insect diet, but do you know anyone who has tried and failed while keeping the monitors in proper conditions?

I also think that another reason an insect diet may fail is that people don't feed them enough. We regulate their intake as adults, which is certainly necessary when feeding rodents, but when feeding insects, could it be that it's best to feed them as many as they want, even as adults? Daniel Bennett observed that they completely filled their stomachs in the wild before returning to their burrows, might it be that they should be allowed to do the same in captivity?

I for one intend to actually try all this, feeding a diet 50% rodents, a diet with much fewer rodents, and a diet with no rodents, and finding out for myself which is the most successful.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Josh, you and I agree on a lot and I love you bro, but seriously, do you know anyone who successfully kept or bred large monitor species on a strict insect only diet? Not that you are BSing. I would say whoever told you they did was BSing. I only know of 2 people in the US who bred savannahs in captivity and they all used mice in the diet.

I can see this being possible with Aussie dwarf species but not with larger species of varanids like savannahs. From my personal experience, mice are needed. We even feed our dwarfs rodents a couple of times a week.

We do agree on a lot man, and its a shame when youre wrong.

Youre right about that though, they could be giving me a line when they told me they fed inverts only. It seems unlikely, as they arent that invested in the argument that Im aware of, and dont ever participate in it on the forums I am part of. Plus, who the heck am I that people would bother to lie to me about it?!

I guess the question I have in response though, is how many people do you know who have actually tried it? I hear many times that it isnt possible, but I hear it from people who never tried, or whose version of trying was to throw in a bunch of crickets only or roaches only. If youre going to say that it definitively isnt possible, then that means you should have really tried breeding them on a healthy and varied invert diet and not been able to do so.

I dont know myself, I dont have the experience of breeding these animals yet. But if mice are required, what is it about them that is required? Ive studied their nutritional value, and cant see anything there that a careful invert diet cant provide. Like I said, I think mice are easy, so I understand adding them to the diet. I just dont understand saying that they are absolutely necessary however.

And once again, I feel like I should state that I am not advocating one way or the other really. I have ideas of course, but dont really care what other people feed theirs. I think its a very technical discussion which genetics might override in certain individual animals anyway. I hope there arent people feeding exclusively mice anymore, but to each their own.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Here's how I think about it. I'm going to use dogs as a baseline, because I've actually studied canine nutrition (as in I studied it in college, not as a hobby).

For a very long time, the standard in dog food used to be (and sometimes it is still used) high in grain, high in by-products with very little nutrition. Can dogs live on it? Absolutely! Can they breed several generations down on this type dog food? Absolutely! Is it healthy for them? Only a fool will say yes. Canine nutritionists, vets, pet owners, breeders, and scientists have extensively studied the difference between these still common, once accepted "healthy" foods and these new, natural grain free diets. It's not up for debate that dogs who are given grain free diets have less digestive problems, less skin irritation, live longer, have healthier joints, are more active, and even mentally more sound than those dogs given dog food that is high in grains.

So why should it be any different with other species of animals? Yes, I'm aware that I can't provide the exact diet of a wild savannah monitor based on where I'm located at. However, I can simulate it. I can provide foods for them that are nutritionally the same. I don't have to add foods that are too high in fat to fit in to their natural diet in order for my monitors to remain healthy.

Here is my take on that analogy, It is comparing grains VS meats.

To be more in perspective here, would it be fair to say that dogs who eat chicken are healthier than dogs who eat beef?

Would a dog be healthier eating pork than venison?

The one thing to remember, inverts are meat, rodents are meat...

[BarelyBreathing]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Here is my take on that analogy, It is comparing grains VS meats.

To be more in perspective here, would it be fair to say that dogs who eat chicken are healthier than dogs who eat beef?

Would a dog be healthier eating pork than venison?

The one thing to remember, inverts are meat, rodents are meat...

Actually, it's well researched that dogs who eat fish or poultry are healthier than those who eat beef, bison, or pork.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Actually, it's well researched that dogs who eat fish or poultry are healthier than those who eat beef, bison, or pork.

Can you provide any factual information on that?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Actually, it's well researched that dogs who eat fish or poultry are healthier than those who eat beef, bison, or pork.

Fair enough, how many wolf packs go fishing in the wild?

[Jay]

Wayne, I know of one. I also have photographic evidence.

[BarelyBreathing]

Originally Posted by Jay

Can you provide any factual information on that?

Yes I can. Fish and poultry, especially poultry, is much easier on the digestive system than red meats. This is why food with the main ingredient of fish is so often recommended for dogs who have digestive problems.

DogAware.com Health: Digestive Disorders in Dogs

Some studies have been done that indicate supplementing with omega-3 fatty acids can help with intestinal inflammation. Fish oil is the best source of these and has been found beneficial in human patients with IBD.

5 Steps to Upgrading Your Dog's Commercial Dog Food Diet - Whole Dog Journal Article

Fish supply omega-3 fatty acids EPA and DHA that are good for the skin and coat. In addition, they help regulate the immune system and reduce inflammation, and so can be helpful for dogs with allergies, arthritis, and autoimmune disease. DHA is also good for brain health, which can benefit both puppies and senior dogs.

Also on 10 Best Foods to Feed Your Senior Dog

There are thousands of articles on this. If you're really interested, do some googling.

[Jay]

Here it is, I found it on the Internet, it must be true right??

[BarelyBreathing]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Fair enough, how many wolf packs go fishing in the wild?

Fishing? Not often. However, wolf packs frequently eat fish washed up on shore, and also steal and bully other predators off their fish, such as birds, bears, and cats.