Brazilian? Really?

[Strutter769]

Wow! I have learned SOOO MUCH today! I recently inquired about a beautiful bright orange neonates of his. It is still available I believe on kingsnake, since I had to pass on it, thanks to post-holiday finances! Man I hated to give that guy up! He was the most pale peach color I had seen!! Grrrrr

Back in the market again hopefully in the spring. So, snakesitter, rainbowsrus, if ya see a nice pale high orange male pop up between now n then..... please let my name cross your mind!

[Strutter769]

And with that, I have hijacked my own thread!! Ha!

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by strutter769

And with that, I have hijacked my own thread!! Ha!

congratulations!

[Strutter769]

Not good. It's all about the snakes, man! The sSNAKESs!!!

[Rogue628]

Originally Posted by Snakesitter

A few years back, scientists studied the differences between the old subspecies using a more modern set of techniques, and from these determined some of the subspecies were so similar they did not qualify as fully separate groups after all.

The study, which was authored by Paulo Passos and Ronaldo Fernandes in 2008, narrowed the existing epicrates cenchria complex from nine to five subspecies, as follows:

E. c. cenchria (“Brazilian”)
--(now includes) E. c. gaigei (“Peruvian”)
--(now includes) E. c. hygrophilus (“Espirito Santo”)

E. c. crassus (“Paraguayan”)
--(now includes) E. c. polylepis (“Central highland”)

E. c. maurus (“Colombian”)
--(now includes) E. c. barbouri (“Marajo Island”)

E. c. alvarezi (“Argentine”)

E. c. assisi (“Caatinga”)

For those interested in reading it, the paper is called “Revision of the Epicrates Cenchria Complex (Serpentes: Boidae),” and lays out their methodology fairly clearly...if slowly.

As for what it means....I view this, as with all matters of classification, as an unsettled issue. I would still avoid creating intergrades between any of the former subspecies, because for all we know someone else will reverse these findings in another few years. For example, Jeff Clark, an experienced US rainbow breeder, is maintaining his Peruvian snakes as a separate "locality" to preserve their look.

I hope this helps answer your question!

Thanks for the info! I was curious as to why they did the revision. I purchased a Peruvian Rainbow from Jeff not too long ago. I will be purchasing a Brazilian sometime this summer (already have the parents picked out lol). I love the pattern of both and find it intriguing that they almost identical but they truly aren't. IF...and that's a huge IF....I ever decide to breed these two, I will do as Jeff is doing.

[Strutter769]

@Rogue ".... I will do as Jeff is doing." Can you elaborate a bit as to what this means?

[Rogue628]

He breeds both Brazilians and Peruvians. He doesn't mix breed them although their classification at this time would allow it without it being a mix or hybrid. He's actually one of the few (I've only seen one other but I imagine there's more) that breeds pure Peruvians. This is to keep their bloodline pure until if and/or when they classify them as separate again.

[Strutter769]

How is this perceived in the community? I'd be lying if I said the thought hasn't crossed my mind, but I'm afraid of the perception from the public, and therefore being stuck with a bunch of snakes I can't sell. Are there any pictures available anywhere of what this combination produces?

[Rogue628]

Not that I'm aware of. The animals look identical to the untrained eye. But the Peruvian has larger scales, therefore, a smaller scale count and their colors have a tendency to be more tense and the black part of their pattern, especially on their back, is thicker.

[Strutter769]

Would you buy a Brazuvian? A Perzilian

[Snakesitter]

Originally Posted by Rogue628

IF...and that's a huge IF....I ever decide to breed these two, I will do as Jeff is doing.

I appreciate that, Rogue! Too many people interbreed and pollute the gene pool.

Strutter, I'd STRONGLY discourage creating intergrades. Even if *you* were honest about their genetic mix, future buyers of those babies might not be, and before very long, some of those babies would end up being resold as pure Brazilians or pure Peruvians...and bred as if they were. That means a whole slew of both species could become genetically "tainted" without the buyers being aware. Over time, the more this happens, the less we have any pure stock left at all.

I actually have one male currently I found out after purchase is an intergrade, and I plan to find him a home with a non-breeder, just to avoid this problem.

[Snakesitter]

Originally Posted by strutter769

Wow! I have learned SOOO MUCH today!

Glad to help. ;-)

Originally Posted by strutter769

So, snakesitter, rainbowsrus, if ya see a nice pale high orange male pop up between now n then..... please let my name cross your mind!

I think you're already on the LGR wait list, no? ;-) Will keep an eye out though!

[Strutter769]

"Even if *you* were honest about their genetic mix, future buyers of those babies might not be, and before very long, some of those babies would end up being resold as pure Brazilians or pure Peruvians...and bred as if they were. That means a whole slew of both species could become genetically "tainted" without the buyers being aware. Over time, the more this happens, the less we have any pure stock left at all."

I've heard these points before and completely agree. I am really giving thought now to breeding only Epicrates. As many subspecies as possible. (All pure.) Is there a breeder that does more than two subspecies, or is exclusive to breeding Epicrates?

[Strutter769]

Originally Posted by Snakesitter

Glad to help. ;-)

I think you're already on the LGR wait list, no? ;-) Will keep an eye out though!

Yes sir, I am! Yes, if you could just keep my name in the back of your mind somewhere.... Maybe somehow associate "Roy" with "Orange!" Do any of these memory tactics work?

[Snakesitter]

LOL. I will make the connection. ;-)

Jeff Clark is the name that comes to mind for multiple rainbow species. No one I know covers all of epicrates.