Venomoids.........#@$%&*

[BWSmith]

Also we say that we don't alter our snakes to keep them. But there are all kinds of albinos, color phases and other odd snakes out there. These are not an attempt to perserve nature because these snakes would not exist with out or manipulation.

Well, i am a purist. I dont like any of that morph crap either.

I remember when that article came in my newsletter, i thought they accidently sent me 3! Very long, very good read. Very even handed.

[Matt]

Some of them are going to get pairs of voids. They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids.

LOL, I have never heard that one.....thats absolutely ridiculous.
Like two people with one ARM missing will have all one armed kids!

[BAZ]

Howdy! Well I guess what I mean by "image" to do with how one feels about oneself.I just throwing ideas out here. I'm not saying images the only reason a person keeps a particular animal but I think it may be one of the reasons (it may be a very small part of the whole equation). Depends on the individual I suppose.

I have not made up my mind on my stand on venomoids just yet. I will have to do my research. I can see it from both sides.

At the moment I have nothing against a well done surgery on a venemous snake to make it a venomoid. Maybe new procedures have to be found to make this surgery less mutilating in some cases.

Right now I don't see anything wrong with keeping a venomoid that is a healthy and happy animal which will lead a long and good life i the hands of a responsible owner.

I think maybe one reason I am leaning towards venomoids is because there are so many irrisponsible keepers out there who keep deadly animals. I would feel safer having a irrisponsible venomoid keeper next door than a irrisponsible fully loaded king cobra keeper.

This forum is really good... I have really learnt a lot from the posts here.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Some excellent points raised in yet another venomoid debate...

In particular, to capture a couple of things from both sides:

BAZ, I can agree with a lot of what you are saying, but at the same time, I like two statements from the last couple of posts. GreggM "[venomoids] have no place here in our hobby" and EdR "They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids"

And now, for anyone who cares, my thoughts on the topic:

Ductectotomies (where the venom ducts are severed) should never be performed. This avoids the 'it will grow back' issue.

Where venomoid surgery is warranted, only adenectomies should be performed, and implants should be used. Surgeries should only be performed by a licensed, and experienced, veterinarian. This avoid the whole butchering issue, at least to the point of any operation. Those who are of the opinion that we should neuter cats will still take issue here, but not me. This also imparts a large cost to the operation, which should deter the average wannabe cobra owner.

Venomoids should never be sold. For any reason.

Now, as to when venomoids are warranted, my answer would be rarely.

I agree that they have no place in the hobby. Wanting a harmless version of a king cobra should not be sufficient justification, plus it can cause all kinds of problems with neighbours, authorities, etc. Of course, I feel this way about venomous animals as well- I don't think that they are suitable for people to keep as pets. The only justification for keeping them is for bona fide scientific, conservation, or educational purposes. By this, I don't mean taking them into your child's school once a year. However, 9 programs in 3 days (assuming this isn't a spectacular exception) would certainly qualify as bona fide education. Generally, I'm talking about people who do actual education on a very regular and frequent basis. Most scientific and conservation purposes are not served by animals residing in people's homes (yes, I know there are exceptions), so I won't focus on these. Bona fide educational purposes usually would involve species that are found in the area. I don't see a huge benefit to spitting cobra education here in Ontario (not enough to justify private ownership of one!).

Also, I would support a permit system for these animals (and others, as stated in the giant python forum).

So, in my world, where venomous would be appropriate, venomoids might also be appropriate, if there was a particular need. Now proper handling techniques, equipment, caging, etc. are all essential, to say the least. However, mistakes can always be made, cages can be broken, vandals can break into a facility, etc. These examples would not preclude a person or facility's liability in the event of a bite. Therefore, I can see a justification for venomoid surgery for specimens used in this manner. This is not to say that I like it, or that I think it is a great idea, but I can see a real and valid justification, provided that the above criteria are followed.

A couple of questions I once asked on another forum, and got no useful replies- For those who do educational programs with venomous reptiles, do you have liability insurance? If so, would your premiums go down if you only used venomoid specimens If not, would you be more likely to be able to get coverage if you did not use specimens with venom?

My opinions only, fire away!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[BWSmith]

OK, well stated. And I will jump off topic for a moment and talk about venomous education.

I don't see a huge benefit to spitting cobra education here in Ontario

I agree. On the KS classifieds right now there is an advertisement for a Venomoid banded Krait. A friend emailed them asking "what is the point?". His reply was that he used them for educational programs in schools and could not bring in an actual hot. Ummmm, now is this so the kids in Florida can ID a Krait? I do not see much educational value in an exotic hot other than a serentarium or such in a very controlled environment. i also do not see the point of removing a hot from an enclosure during a school show.

As far as insurance. I am not insured yet. There is only one insurance company that will cover dangerous animals and the premiums run about 8 grand a year! I need liability insurance, but for the time being a contract releasing me of all liability written by the corporate lawyer for DuPont will have to do. But i would assume that with venomoids, the rates would be lower. Now due to the lack of insurance and simple safety, I do NO school programs with venomous. Generally it is an introduction to herps and several species are represented and general information is covered. Venomous shows are kept for those that need it most. I use secure, locked cages with vents on the back. Venomous shows are generally reserved for Wildlife Refuges, Nature Centers, Scouts, and pre-hospital medical personnel. Beginning March 14, I have 3 days of advanced programs, 3 two hour programs per day. That is alot. And I already have 3 nature centers lined up in the next few months. It is by no means full time. Probably an average of one full day per month. May not sound like alot, but it sure seems like it. But i do several shows with other keepers. These keepers may only do the 3 nature centers each year. But if it was not for private keepers like us, it would be a pretty boring Snake Day. But I won't get into privaate keeping vens on this thread. That is a whole other ball of wax.

Surgeries should only be performed by a licensed, and experienced, veterinarian.

Problem is that I am unaware of a single liscenced vet that will perform such a surgury. So what are we left with? Basically, they are all "Hack Jobs".

I have not made up my mind on my stand on venomoids just yet. I will have to do my research. I can see it from both sides.

That is very good. It is an excellent way to come to a descision. I think for me, the majority of it is a Moral issue. And the sale of venomoids has been risen dramatically recently.

I think maybe one reason I am leaning towards venomoids is because there are so many irrisponsible keepers out there who keep deadly animals.

You are 100% correct. As with any animal, there are going to be a large number of irresponsible keepers. And with venomous, the concequences can be dire. But there are also alot of responsible keepers out there. No point here, just a statement

I would feel safer having a irrisponsible venomoid keeper next door than a irrisponsible fully loaded king cobra keeper.

Well, let me put your mind at ease. It doesnt matter. To my knowledge, there has NEVER been as escaped venomous envenomate an innocent.

[The_Omen]

I am goint to start by answering a question that has popped up and not yet covered, my perspective on it.

From Baz- The question of knowing a neighbor had a void or a hot cobra.

I would rather know that my neighbor has a hot, unaltered snake.

Reason being, with an unaltered hot, the chances of irresponsibility are decreased (in some cases) and I would realize that there are proper tools (handling equipment) in the dwelling.
In the event of an escape, i would know for certain that the animal in question IS hot. Not the maybe that can occur with a void.( nature 'finding' the way, offspring from the snake(s) or what was sold as a void actually not being a void)

{side note: if the neighbor is irresponsible with an animal that he does know is hot, then Darwinism will eventually rid me of my not so bright neighbor.}

Getting a venomoid for practice is no way to get the experience with the hots either, since somewhere in the back of your mind, you would always have the notion 'If I get hit, it aint doing nothin!' which can cause people to become too relaxed around the snakes which, out of habit, would carry over into keeping hots. Humans are creatures of habit and bad habits are the hardest to break.

Better to be 100% attentive and into hots or 100% away from them than somewhat inattentive and careless.

As for permits, some locales do require permits for hots and exotics, while others do not.
I do believe that of the locales that require the hots permits, DO require the same permits etc. for voids as well, due to the offspring of voids being non-voids.

Offspring? from a lone female?
Stranger things happen in real life.
Many people buy animals at shows and are suprised with a clutch of eggs or the births, due to the animals being kept with opposite sex animals at the dealers place,or somewhere along the way, where, as one put it, nature finds a way.
Even if wild caught, during mating season, better chances of a clutch AND there have been many cases of retained sperm, which leads to a gravid situation sometimes over a year later.

[BAZ]

Wow this forum on venomoids is so much more civilized than the one of "the other" website! lol.. could it be because we are based in gentle Canada?

Jeff you made some really good points and I feel I agree with you.

[BWSmith]

I do believe that of the locales that require the hots permits, DO require the same permits etc. for voids as well, due to the offspring of voids being non-voids.

You are correct. Georgia is a prime example.

Offspring? from a lone female?

**points to PK**

somewhere in the back of your mind, you would always have the notion 'If I get hit, it aint doing nothin!'

Again you are correct. No matter how much you THINK you will treat it like a hot, you know that it is not. No I have thought of one instance where a void where may be feasible. Unfortunately the sircumstance does not exist. If a peson trained a great deal of people on a regular basis venomous handling and husbandry. The reason for this is the training of pinning and other VERY dangerous neccessities. And the only way it would be feasible is if the trainee DID NOT KNOW that it was a void. Then the respect would be there and it would be a great deal of pressure off the trainer. I have trained a few people in handling hots (carefully selected individuals). But not enough to warrent a void. When I train, pinning and tailing is demonstrated, but noone lays a hand on my hots but me.

Wow this forum on venomoids is so much more civilized than the one of "the other" website! lol.. could it be because we are based in gentle Canada?

Naahhh, It's just to damn cold up there for ya'll to argue too much

And there are about 50 other forums. I assume "the other site" refers to KS. But i can never figure out the Cans anyway so I try not to assume too much

[Jeff Hathaway]

Hey BW- for what it's worth, I think you're doing some fabulous work, though I wasn't trying to elicit any sort of proof from you:-) (Hey, how do you guys do those graphic smileys, anyway?).

I agree with virtually everything that you said, except perhaps for an implication that snake day would be boring without venomous species. I think that there are so many great non-venomous snakes out there that many 'snake days' could be filled with them! However, 'snake days', in the appropriate setting (not just the average school program), should certainly include examples of venomous species that might be encountered in the area.

I am not aware of any vets who would do the surgery either, but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist. And a lack of vets to do it helps to support the stance that it is rarely justified and shouldn't be done very often.

Also, although I agree about the zero statistic for neighbour envenomations, that does not necessarily make the neighbours feel any better!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[BWSmith]

except perhaps for an implication that snake day would be boring without venomous species

Since they are at nature Centers, we always try to reperesent as many native snakes as possible. Especially around here, they have to know what a copperhead looks like. And put a Water Snake next to a cottonmouth so they can tellt he difference!

how do you guys do those graphic smileys

You have to go to "POST REPLY" not just the quick reply. And off to the left is a box that you can just click on a smiley. o>

[Ed_r]

This is very impressive I must say. I have seen many education threads turn into a flame war. Can say it's been a very long time since I've seen an attempted flame war turn into a HIGHLY educational debate.
Didn't mean Greg. Never tick off a guy that keeps Gabbies, or one with a monster killer cottonmouth.lol

[Matt]

LOL

[Gregg M]

LOL Ed r........ Actually I had an idea that this would not turn ugly here otherwise I would not have posted...... Everyone I have come in contact with in this forum seem to have their heads together....... Open mindedness and understanding is what makes this forum better than the rest...... We all have our own opinions and nobody should be flammed for that....... Everyone here does a great job posting and dont forget about the moderators of this site...... They do a great job taking care of this great site....... Now enough *** kissing......

[Jeremy]

Hey Ed R,
Just wanted to clarifiy one thing which may or may not have been mentioned already. Neonates of some venomous sp may proove to have slightly more toxic venom then the adults but this is only speculation at this point. I do not belive any studies have been conducted to proove it one way or the other. However, even if the venom is more toxic, its not that much more and trhere is no venomous sp on the planet that would have neonates be more deadly then the adults. Remember quanity is the main kill you factor and no neonate can produce as much venom as an adult. For instance, the Bushmaster has about the lowest LD50 ranking outa of every venomous snake tested(LD50s are done on mice to get an idea of venom potentancy) yet it has one of the highest mortality rates in humans of any snake living today! The reason being is that they can inject up 800mgs in a single bite!!!! Give me a coralsnake bite, which is 100s of times more toxic in LD50 anyday over a bushmasters!!!!!!! Ill take that measly 7 mgs over 800 anyday of the week!

Welp, not bashing or trying to be a smart arse, just trying to set the facts strait. Alot of people seem to belive babies are alot more dangerous and this really just is not the case.

As for the venomoid debate, I personaly belive venomous keeping to be the pinacle of Herpeculture and should be left to those who have studied and put in the time to properly educate themselfs on how to deal with these fascinateing yet horribley deadly creatures. Getting a venomoid is takeing the easy route and there should be no easy route when dealing with a venomous sp.

Also, to the people who try to argue that they wana get a venomoid to teach them how to deal with venomous, well, that BS. There is no way in hell you are going to treatr a venomoid like a venomous. They have no venom! Thats just like saying om getting a blk racer to teach me how to deal with a mamba. Nope. Just dosent work that way because a blk racer anit got no venom!!!!!!

The best venomous training one can get is threw an already established venomus keeper. Find someone to shjow you the ropes and proceed from there.

My 2 pennies,
Jeremy

[Matt]

The best venomous training one can get is threw an already established venomus keeper. Find someone to show you the ropes and proceed from there

absolutely, this is the best way to go about it, not trying to find great look alike or act alike species!!!!