Help! Egg bound, calcium deficient veiled/yemen cham

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

Lea is laying her eggs . . . on TOP of the soil. I walked in quietly to check on her this morning, and she was on top of one of the artificial vines going across the bucket. I thought she wasn't doing anything, so, as everything was dry, I decided to spray her. When I did, she moved off the vine--almost falling--and I could see two eggs on the surface of the soil behind her.

I immediately closed the cage, recurtained her, and left, but I'm really concerned . . .

Hopefully the spraying didn't disturb her too much, has she finished laying them now?

It isn't that uncommon for females to drop the eggs just on the surface rather than actually take care of them and dig a suitable laying site, it generally happens with infertile eggs when females haven't been mated.

[Chu'Wuti]

Good to hear, but I'm still worried--she seems to have stopped laying . . . I am really, really torn between not disturbing her and disturbing her to try to figure out what is going on. If she hasn't laid more by 1:30 today (when I finish teaching), I am going to disturb her.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Chu'Wuti

Good to hear, but I'm still worried--she seems to have stopped laying . . . I am really, really torn between not disturbing her and disturbing her to try to figure out what is going on. If she hasn't laid more by 1:30 today (when I finish teaching), I am going to disturb her.

The more you disturb her the less likely she is to finish laying and more likely to become egg bound, the spraying definitely wouldn't have helped, but accidents happen, best bet is to leave her until tomorrow, try to check on her as little as possible, don't worry about spraying yet, a day of lower humidity is not going to cause any issues, just leave her to feel secure enough to lay, will generally be towards the evening again then over night / early morning, so best bet is to wait until tomorrow before checking again.

[concinnusman]

This is encouraging. I'm just wondering if she was mated and if she wasn't then maybe there isn't a normal sized clutch. Not really sure about veiled chameleons but a quick google search says clutches are generally much larger that other chameleons. " large Veiled Chameleons (Chamaeleo calyptratus) have been known to lay clutches of 80–100 eggs. Clutch sizes can also vary greatly among the same species"

Is there any way to peek in and see her without disturbing? I'd say if there's still any digging activity then that's good.

The lizards I've bred also tend to start digging in evening and lay overnight. They also dig at multiple sites, often abandoning one site and starting a new one. This can go on all night or several nights in a row but usually stops during the day and they resume at night again. It's very exhausting work. However, I've never had them stop laying once they start. They're usually done within an hour or so once they start laying. If you see her trying to cover the eggs (raking dirt over them) then that would be your clue that she's done.

Do they look fertile? You can usually tell just by looking at them. Infertile eggs will be misshaped and / or discolored while fertile eggs are generally smooth and uniformly white. If they look fertile, whatever you do, when it comes time to move them you have to be very careful to keep them in the same orientation. Keep them same side up as you found them. You might want to go pickup some sterile vermiculite (at garden supply) washed sand, or other appropriate reptile egg substrate that holds moisture and isn't prone to molding.

I've used washed white sand and vermiculite or a mixture of both. They both worked well together or by themselves.

I know we said to disturb her as little as possible but if those eggs are fertile, you don't want them to dry out while you're waiting. Wrinkling is a good indicator that they need some moisture/misting.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by concinnusman

This is encouraging. I'm just wondering if she was mated and if she wasn't then maybe there isn't a normal sized clutch. Not really sure about veiled chameleons but a quick google search says clutches are generally much larger that other chameleons. " large Veiled Chameleons (Chamaeleo calyptratus) have been known to lay clutches of 80–100 eggs. Clutch sizes can also vary greatly among the same species"

Is there any way to peek in and see her without disturbing? I'd say if there's still any digging activity then that's good.

The lizards I've bred also tend to start digging in evening and lay overnight. They also dig at multiple sites, often abandoning one site and starting a new one. This can go on all night or several nights in a row but usually stops during the day and they resume at night again. It's very exhausting work. However, I've never had them stop laying once they start. They're usually done within an hour or so once they start laying. If you see her trying to cover the eggs (raking dirt over them) then that would be your clue that she's done.

Do they look fertile? You can usually tell just by looking at them. Infertile eggs will be misshaped and / or discolored while fertile eggs are generally smooth and uniformly white. If they look fertile, whatever you do, when it comes time to move them you have to be very careful to keep them in the same orientation. Keep them same side up as you found them. You might want to go pickup some sterile vermiculite (at garden supply) washed sand, or other appropriate reptile egg substrate that holds moisture and isn't prone to molding.

I've used washed white sand and vermiculite or a mixture of both. They both worked well together or by themselves.

I know we said to disturb her as little as possible but if those eggs are fertile, you don't want them to dry out while you're waiting. Wrinkling is a good indicator that they need some moisture/misting.

my clutches from veileds averaged at around 85 eggs, with 102 being my largest clutch, my smallest clutch was from a pied female that only gave me 34. If she is just dropping the eggs and not actually laying them properly, i'd say these would be the infertile ones if she was mated at all, as they tend to pop out the slugs first.

[concinnusman]

Originally Posted by NBLADE

my clutches from veileds averaged at around 85 eggs, with 102 being my largest clutch, my smallest clutch was from a pied female that only gave me 34.

Holy crud! That's a lot of eggs.

[Chu'Wuti]

The more you disturb her the less likely she is to finish laying and more likely to become egg bound, the spraying definitely wouldn't have helped, but accidents happen, best bet is to leave her until tomorrow, try to check on her as little as possible, don't worry about spraying yet, a day of lower humidity is not going to cause any issues, just leave her to feel secure enough to lay, will generally be towards the evening again then over night / early morning, so best bet is to wait until tomorrow before checking again.

I do understand, and I would have avoided disturbing her again had I not STRONGLY felt something was not right with her. Let me update you with today's news:

Turns out Lea quit laying because she prolapsed her rectum during laying. I found her lying on the sand this a.m. with no new eggs visible, so I picked her up to check on her; that's when I found she had the prolapse. After researching this condition, I realized that even if the prolapse could be shrunk, she would be unable to lay her eggs without it recurring unless the eggs were surgically removed, which is an expense I cannot afford. Hence, I made the painful decision to have her put down.

I tried to call my own vet, but their line was busy, so I called another vet I know here locally and asked if she felt able to put Lea down. The answer was yes, so, I did not try calling the herp-certified vet in Oklahoma City--that's around an hour drive or more for me, and as I was planning only to have her put to sleep, I didn't feel taking her to a herp vet was necessary if a local vet could do it.

It may be fortunate for Lea that I did it this way! The vet to whom I took her is my husband's research partner's wife, widow, actually (he died just after Christmas, and we've helped the family a lot), and she has decided to try to save Lea. I told her we cannot afford the surgery, but she insisted that she wants to do it and won't charge, so she will be operating today. She does a lot of exotics and feels she can do it.

She also took an X-ray and we could NOT EVEN SEE THE BONES IN LEA'S LEGS--that's strong evidence of MBD. IF Lea survives today's surgery, then she's very lucky not to have the deformities from far worse MBD, and we'll be able to help her with her calcium levels.

The real question is whether Lea is strong enough to survive the surgery.

Contrary to what the other exotic animal vet said, Lea is NOT overweight; indeed, she is UNDERWEIGHT. I realized yesterday that I could see her ribs as she was turning away from me in the evening, which had me wondering about the "overweight" diagnosis, and Kerry (our friend/vet) agreed--Lea has NO fat reserves at all. So we don't know if she'll survive the surgery, but as Kerry pointed out, once she is anesthetized, she will be feeling no pain, and if it doesn't go well, they will give her a deeper dose then to humanely end her life.

Think good thoughts for Lea; I'm much more hopeful now than I was earlier this morning!!!

[Chu'Wuti]

Kerry just called. Lea actually was able to pass an egg before they were able to do the surgery, so they have given her water/dextrose water and are going to hold her for observation to see if she might be able to lay the rest by herself tonight without surgery. Then they can repair the prolapse. Keeping my fingers crossed!

[snakekid6996]

Is she ok now?

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by snakekid6996

Is she ok now?

I was wondering this.

[Chu'Wuti]

That's a good question . . . and the answer is, I don't really think so. So--last week, Lea spent most of the week at the vet. Wednesday night and Thursday through the day & night she laid 34 eggs, to bring her total to 39. Thursday my son was able to get her to eat one cricket, and the vet's staff got her to eat one mealworm. Friday they got her to eat another cricket. Friday afternoon, she pooped a mostly undigested cricket.

We brought her home from the vet for the weekend because there wouldn't be anyone there to spray her often enough. She hasn't laid any more eggs, and I haven't been able to get her to eat anything, so I've been force-feeding her bug juice (Ensure + Pedialyte 1:1 plus crickets blended). She's not happy with that . . . but I don't know what else to do at this point. She's still prolapsed, and it's drying out despite our efforts to keep it moist . . .

All in all, it doesn't look good for Lea.

I really hate it when I can't save an animal . . .

[snakekid6996]

I'm sorry to hear that , but at least You did everything You could to try to save her. I wish You luck.

[concinnusman]

It's sad really. There's plenty of information out there about proper nutrition and prevention of calcium deficiency in female chameleons. Apparently the bone/nutritional problems which usually result in egg binding are common preventable issues with these. In other words, basic husbandry was not followed. By the time you got her, it was a bit late to correct that.

[Chu'Wuti]

Yesterday when I force-fed Lea some bug juice, she wasn't very responsive, but this morning she gulped down about 1 ml--kept opening her mouth and swallowing! That made me feel somewhat more hopeful except for the fact that she still hadn't laid any more eggs and we knew there were more, and the prolapse was looking worse, too. DH and I took her back to the vet before noon. Midday they tried again on the force-feeding, and she refused, and she was looking so thin and tired we were all really worried. My vet friend tried helping her lay more eggs with gentle manipulation (which had worked last week) and gave her a calcium injection.

However, this afternoon Lea died. Kerry did an autopsy and found Lea had 23 more eggs in her little body. Kerry said, "You would not believe how thin she was after the eggs were taken out--she was absolutely emaciated, and her bones are really soft." I asked whether I could have done anything differently to have helped her and she said, "No, you couldn't have done anything in two weeks time--this was the result of long-term bad husbandry. If she hadn't been egg bound, you might have been able to save her from the poor diet, but I don't think so."

So there we are, at the end of our less than two weeks with Lea the chameleon. I wish we could have saved her . . .

I really appreciate all the help from everyone here. DH and I think that sometime in the future we will get a chameleon of our own, perhaps a male (avoid problems with egg binding!) Jackson's, as my DH really likes the way they look with their horns. After all, we now have a big enclosure for a chameleon and have set up in a nice spot where we can keep the humidity up, provide sunshine (without overheating), have lots of plants . . . but for now we are pretty sad about Lea, as she really grabbed our hearts in the short time she spent with us.

Thank you all again!!! It's always so good to know that this forum is filled with truly caring people!

Sandy

[Lankyrob]

Sorry for your loss