The Savannah Monitor Diet thread..

[Pirarucu]

See here is where I have an issue with this debate: People have started banging on about how rodents are now necessary, because they're "improving" natural conditions. Who's to say they are an improvement? They're easier for us, certainly, but what exactly makes them so much better? That's a question I have never heard an answer to.

I have heard the argument that it's impossible to support a Savannah Monitor on only inverts, and to that I'm afraid I will have to say BS. It clearly works for them in the wild, they will not "suffer" in captivity. It's not hard to supply the amount they need, am I the only one who has heard of a roach colony? Simply get a colony of hissers going and eventually they'll get to the point that a few thousand are born each day, and you end up having to split your colony so you aren't overrun. If you have a big colony, you can keep a Savannah Monitor supported with no problem.

I think that if anyone thinks that they know better than millions of years of evolution, they're kidding themselves. If you want to improve on nature, why not just replicate nature and cut out the negatives? No predators, no dry season, no shortage of parasite-free, gut loaded, healthy bugs as opposed to wild prey items, hotter temperatures made available, the list goes on and on. Those are ways to improve the natural environment, and it's ridiculous to think that magically you have thought of something nature has not.

Now, I am not against feeding rodents to Savannah Monitors, I believe they can be fed and may be beneficial, but I don't buy into them being necessary or needing to make up most of their diet.
I would think that they should be fed to the point where the monitor has a healthy reserve of fat in it's tail, and no more than that.

As for them eating them in the wild, I'm sure they would, if they stumbled upon one. But if they targeted rodents, their diet would be rodents. They would be perfectly capable of outcompeting other rodent-eating species. The simple fact is that they do not spend their time and energy actively searching for rodents in the wild, that much is clear.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

See here is where I have an issue with this debate: People have started banging on about how rodents are now necessary, because they're "improving" natural conditions. Who's to say they are an improvement? They're easier for us, certainly, but what exactly makes them so much better? That's a question I have never heard an answer to.

I have heard the argument that it's impossible to support a Savannah Monitor on only inverts, and to that I'm afraid I will have to say BS. It clearly works for them in the wild, they will not "suffer" in captivity. It's not hard to supply the amount they need, am I the only one who has heard of a roach colony? Simply get a colony of hissers going and eventually they'll get to the point that a few thousand are born each day, and you end up having to split your colony so you aren't overrun. If you have a big colony, you can keep a Savannah Monitor supported with no problem.

I think that if anyone thinks that they know better than millions of years of evolution, they're kidding themselves. If you want to improve on nature, why not just replicate nature and cut out the negatives? No predators, no dry season, no shortage of parasite-free, gut loaded, healthy bugs as opposed to wild prey items, hotter temperatures made available, the list goes on and on. Those are ways to improve the natural environment, and it's ridiculous to think that magically you have thought of something nature has not.

Now, I am not against feeding rodents to Savannah Monitors, I believe they can be fed and may be beneficial, but I don't buy into them being necessary or needing to make up most of their diet.
I would think that they should be fed to the point where the monitor has a healthy reserve of fat in it's tail, and no more than that.

As for them eating them in the wild, I'm sure they would, if they stumbled upon one. But if they targeted rodents, their diet would be rodents. They would be perfectly capable of outcompeting other rodent-eating species. The simple fact is that they do not spend their time and energy actively searching for rodents in the wild, that much is clear.

Go do it then...

Im yet to see anyone breed boscs using just inverts soley which is where my issue with not feeding rodents lies...

[infernalis]

On thing I do know, in the quest to avoid rodents, I have seen people suggest some pretty off the wall stuff..

and to what end?

I tried to avoid rodents with Chomper, and all I did was feed him a bunch of seafood items treated with phosphates.

at least, if nothing else.. rodents are a clean chemical free food source that no one (as of yet) can show one single necropsy report that proves without a doubt that rodents were the cause of the lizard's demise.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by infernalis

On thing I do know, in the quest to avoid rodents, I have seen people suggest some pretty off the wall stuff..

and to what end?

I tried to avoid rodents with Chomper, and all I did was feed him a bunch of seafood items treated with phosphates.

at least, if nothing else.. rodents are a clean chemical free food source that no one (as of yet) can show one single necropsy report that proves without a doubt that rodents were the cause of the lizard's demise.

Since mostly what we see is bad husbandry, people blame the food not the husbandry.

Hence the mad quest for cutting verts out of captive bosc diets.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Since mostly what we see is bad husbandry, people blame the food not the husbandry.

Hence the mad quest for cutting verts out of captive bosc diets.

Ah, but you and I both know, all the careful diet in the world is not going to correct poor caging.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Ah, but you and I both know, all the careful diet in the world is not going to correct poor caging.

Which has escaped the notice of the invert only crowd.

[jarich]

We are battling over history in this community as well, and it seems like it has gone in the right direction. These debates mean that more research is done by the community members in general, in an effort to find the truth, and as a result a more informed consensus is reached. I know this is the case for me; this debate spawned a lot of research I might not otherwise have done (and still does). This is true for both caging and diet, and so I think it is a good thing.

In the past, the entire recommended diet of these guys was mice. As is often the case, it took a swing in the opposite direction to bring light on the subject. I think it could be argued that the 'invert only' diet was what challenged the idea of feeding mice only. Possibly as a result, it is generally accepted practice now to feed a mix of rodents and inverts. I think its a step in the right direction too.

As to whether it is essential to feed mice, lets be honest, no, it isn't. I know of monitor keepers who have bred solely on inverts. Its just that it takes a lot of certain kinds of inverts to equal one mouse with all its fat calories. And with monitors at healthy metabolic rates, caloric intake is pretty crucial. Feeding a single mouse is easier to get to those caloric levels than say 20-30 large roaches or a bajillion crickets. Especially when you are talking about a gravid female or growing juvenile. Is this to say that it is the only way to do it? Absolutely not. Is it an easier way to do it? For most people, yes it is.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by jarich

We are battling over history in this community as well, and it seems like it has gone in the right direction. These debates mean that more research is done by the community members in general, in an effort to find the truth, and as a result a more informed consensus is reached. I know this is the case for me; this debate spawned a lot of research I might not otherwise have done (and still does). This is true for both caging and diet, and so I think it is a good thing.

In the past, the entire recommended diet of these guys was mice. As is often the case, it took a swing in the opposite direction to bring light on the subject. I think it could be argued that the 'invert only' diet was what challenged the idea of feeding mice only. Possibly as a result, it is generally accepted practice now to feed a mix of rodents and inverts. I think its a step in the right direction too.

As to whether it is essential to feed mice, lets be honest, no, it isn't. I know of monitor keepers who have bred solely on inverts. Its just that it takes a lot of certain kinds of inverts to equal one mouse with all its fat calories. And with monitors at healthy metabolic rates, caloric intake is pretty crucial. Feeding a single mouse is easier to get to those caloric levels than say 20-30 large roaches or a bajillion crickets. Especially when you are talking about a gravid female or growing juvenile. Is this to say that it is the only way to do it? Absolutely not. Is it an easier way to do it? For most people, yes it is.

Ive seen plenty of people breed dwarfs, trees, with invert only diets in fact id go so far as to say it works better than mice for small varanids...
the big uns on the other hand...

then 20/30 eggs...

Im still yet to see a pair of boscs produce on inverts only until i do...

[jarich]

You sure youre not from Missouri?

Im only going on what I have been told by people, Ive never actually seen anyone breed anything with my own eyes. However, I know of two people that have bred boscs, and said they fed only inverts. I am taking their word for it, as there seems little reason to think they are lying. Again, youre talking about caloric intake. Like many things, that can be reached in a number of different ways.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by jarich

You sure youre not from Missouri?

Im only going on what I have been told by people, Ive never actually seen anyone breed anything with my own eyes. However, I know of two people that have bred boscs, and said they fed only inverts. I am taking their word for it, as there seems little reason to think they are lying. Again, youre talking about caloric intake. Like many things, that can be reached in a number of different ways.

Yes it can be achieved a number of ways.

However, I honestly think that steering people away from rodents is counterproductive too.

Not everyone has access to mountains of large crayfish, jumbo organic prawns, giant locusts, etc..

As the lizards get larger, the common feeder crickets become a lost cause, since it would take so many of them to even put a dent in the appetite of a bigger monitor. (we have to remember, African crickets are gigantic compared to N. American crickets.)

Roaches are awesome, but what if something happens (like mold in the roach colony) and suddenly you are roach-less, or your spouse / landlord / parents forbid the roach colony?

[jarich]

Ya, like I said, its easier for most people. I was just saying I dont think that its absolutely necessary either. WISH we could get locusts over here. You Brits have a great food source there we dont have access to.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by jarich

Ya, like I said, its easier for most people. I was just saying I dont think that its absolutely necessary either. WISH we could get locusts over here. You Brits have a great food source there we dont have access to.

Yup fantastic... one tiny problem with em though... Bleeding $32 per 100 for adults give or take...

and as you can imagine even a sml bosc eats a couple hundred adult locusts per sitting...

I prefer roaches personally more meat on em admittedly warmed up locusts are bloody good fun.

Dexy eats $60 dollars per sitting.

[infernalis]

I wish we could get the ones like I saw down in Florida, holy cow they were freakishly huge.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I wish we could get the ones like I saw down in Florida, holy cow they were freakishly huge.

Im sure there highly toxic down there though at least the brightly coloured species are at any rate.

[infernalis]

We have thes bland brown ones out in my meadow, I have fed them without any problems.

Watching the lizards jump up after them is a riot.

I never checked to see if the monsters from Florida were toxic.