Venomoids.........#@$%&*

[BAZ]

Here is my take on venomoids. I understand this is a hot topic with herpers and quite controversial.

I will just try and tell it like I see it. This is just my opinion and hopefully I don't offend anyone.

Why do we keep reptiles or any other "non-domesticated" animals? For our own enjoyment really. 99% of us don't contribute to any kind of scientific knowledge pool by keeping monitor lizards, snakes or crocodilians. Quite simply we want to keep an amazing animal in our home so we can enjoy it whenever we want.

I can completely understand why a person would want to keep a venomoid snake. Some of the most beautiful snakes in the world are venomous. I can understand a person wanting to possess something that is beautiful but wanting to take away any risk of death to family members. Would you feel more comfortable knowing your neighbour had a regular venomous cobra or a venomoid cobra? Snakes escape and accidents do happen even to the best of us.

At the same time I don't think many people know how to do the surgery to make a snake a venomoid properly and people end up mutilating and killing the animal. Some people have had venomoids and have kept them well... the surgery went well and the animal ate fine and lived a pretty decent life. Some people have had animals mutilated and killed by the surgery.

Its all very well to say we should not mess with nature but we do and we always try to control it to some extent. If we were strict on not messing around with nature we would leave wild animals in the wild and that includes our leopard geckos and ball pythons. We would not get our dogs and cats spayed and neutered. We would not keep birds in cages. We would not crop the tails of particular breeds of dogs... damn some of us even get circumcized (people not animals )

The fact is that we use nature to benefit ourselves in some way or another.

I don't think comparing a venomoid to a Porshe without a engine is justified. Its just not the same thing and the analogy just does not work. I can understand comparing it to keeping a gun without bullets... some people collect antique guns for display purposes. Would't feel to safe being in a house where the gun jumps off its wall stand and randomly fires itself at the inhabitants of the house! lol.

In the wild the snake needs it's venom to hunt it's prey and to protect itself from harm. In captivity it does not need to hunt and does not need to protect itself... you as a owner keep it fed and protected. It may strike in self defence but how does it know it does not have any venom? I understand there may be a issue concerning digestion of food relating to the venom so I hope someone can clear up if it makes that much of a difference. I would think it just takes longer to digest food with no venom just like in a constrictor.

I don't know if I am completely for or against keeping venomoids. I understand why people want to keep them and I also understand why some people are against it if you take some of the horror stories into account.

[ballpython5000]

snakemann you really need to know what you are talking about before you start badgering me about venomoids. i simply said that in 5 or so years i intend to get a hot. either a venomoid so i can get used to the species and how to care for it. with a venomoid i would have no consequence after being bit. and by the time i get a vonomous i will have all the practice needed for that species and can almost totally avoid and incidents. i think that seems very reasonable.
i did however also say that i may just get an eyelash viper or copperhead so i can reduce the risk of being killed if i were to have a flaw somewhere.
i am in no way saying im ready for hots as of now but i certainly do have them built into my herping plan. and im not saying im gonna go get a perfectly fine and wonderful venomous snake and have it butchered for my personal liking. i intend to buy one that was already fixed. i just could not have one ruined by me.
but i guess snakemann knows enough about venomous herps to bugg me over and over about it. it was an idea snakemann. my other idea is to get an eyelash or copperhead. i compare this scenario to the time that you posted on the egg-eater forum when you had no frikkin idea what you were saying. so id appreciate if you would not critisize my ideas so badly. its an idea, i like to consider my options snakemann. so please unless you know what you are rambling about, dont try to badger me about a simple little idea.
for those of you who seem a bit confused about this, you had to be in the chat to understand. this message is to snakemann refering that chat.

[BWSmith]

THen it probably should have stayed in chat or PM. The post did not refer to you by name so I don't see why you feel it necessary to defend yourself when no accusations were specifically made.

[Vanan]

I hear ya BW and the rest of you with valid points. I guess, there's a very very VERY small minority which can justify keeping a venomoid, with good reasons. But for the rest of the keepers, it's better to go without it.

I for one reason, am very critical and like to know as much as I can of both sides of the story. This has been a very helpful thread! Thanks guys!

[snakemann87]

i am not gonna start a big fight bp5000, if you were to have listened to me, i had no problem with you getting a venom, i can care less. But i was saying do not get a venomoid, ecspecially for practice. As many already said, if you can't handle a venom right away, get a corn.

I have seen many hots at herp shows, mainly spitters, gaboons, rhinos, and rattlers. All were labled as venomous, can i identify a venomoid by appearance BW? I would think due to the removal of the venom glands.

[Matt]

you can tell on most, but some have implants to replace the glands....quite sad really!
we want the snake to LOOK normal, but not to really BE normal!

[snakemann87]

THEY PUT IN FAKE GLANDS!!!!!!!!! God, some people out there amaze me. I don't understand how they say they love these animals so much, but then they go and do something like make it a venomoid.

[Xetox]

Its a big issue and I am not truefully sure how I feel about the matter.....I dont think I have spent the time and done enough research to say ether way.......I see both sides, I mean the people against I see and understand why. But also Baz makes a good point to. I have worked with snakes since I was about 6 - 27 now - and I know I am still not ready for a hot....

I has always been in my mind but never felt I was ready. But I would prolly start with a pygmy

[BoidKeeper]

I have to say guys that I am a shamed to say that I was totally ignorant to this whole issue. Because I have no interest in owning a hot or a giant I almost never read the post on those forums and apparently I’ve been missing out on some important issues in herpetoculture. This is not like “fixing” a cat or a dog to help cut down on the numbers of unwanted pets. I think anyone that would want a venomoid wants a snake (any snake that is) for the wrong reason. This is not like a dwarf retic, this is un-natural, unnecessary surgery conducted only so some body can feel tuff owning what should be dangerous. It’s like playing Russian rullet with blanks.
My two cents,
Trevor

[ReptiZone]

I say there is enuf venamoids out there that even if someone wanted to practice with one they would not have to buy one. Just make a few conections like some one said if it was droped off at there door they would not turn it away. I am shour there is some verry respected hot handeler that have a few venamoids not because they baught it but because it was given. So find one some where els and practice then get what is recomended to start off with. I know nothing about hots and not afraid to say it when I want to get one I will be asking around to see if there is a good handeler that could walk me throw it for a week or so and i will make a dicission from there any way I need some sleep good night

[BAZ]

Why would anyone (any sane person) want to play Russian Roulette in the first place? I don't think that by keeping venomous snakes the analogy of it being like a game of Russian Roulette should ever come into play.

I think a person who keeps venemous snakes keeps them for the same reason a person keeps retics or anacondas. Who knows.. maybe deep down inside some of us do feel "tough" to some degree. Maybe deep down inside it does have something to do with image. I know how it feels to have a 18ft snake around my shoulders, or a cougar in my arms, a hawk on my fist, a alligator over my shoulder... it feels bloody good to spend time with these animals It's a rush to interact with powerful animals. But maybe image has a part to play in why we are attracted to these animals too. Why would I rather keep a big mastif or great dane and not a poodle?

I love king cobras. I would love to share the same room as one and be in it's presence. But at the same time I don't want to die. So I understand a person who wants to keep a king cobra, be able to interact with it to some extent without the risk of being killed.

When it comes down to it is it really all about the animals or all about us? I think if it was really all about the animals we would not remove them from the wild and put them in cages in our home no matter if it is a lizard, a snake or a parrot. We keep animals for our enjoyment and if we do that we have a responsibility towards the animal to give it the best care possible in a captive environment. I think people who keep venomoids want to enjoy the presence of the animal but just don't want to risk their life or their family's life. You can't blame them for that. I personally feel that a person who keeps a venemoid is being more careful with the welfare of their family and neighbours than a person keeping a deadly snake that could potentially kill someone.

Wow this venomoid issue is like the abortion issue for herpers! 2 sides very strongly opposed to the others view.

Blimey.. I'm rambling on a bit here. I better get to bed soon.

[Gregg M]

BAZ,
You do bring up some honest points and you my friend sound like a responsable keeper, but on the otherhand I dont really get why you say we all keep these animals for the rush or the image...... The only people that know about what I keep are the people on this forum and a few close friends that keep similar animals....... The general public does not know I keep these animals....... The one thing I noticed is that the majority of responsable hot keepers do not let many people know they are hot keepers...... I myself do this for many reasons and the image is not one of them...... I am way into the conservation of these animals...... Not that I am going to go into Africa and release the neonates into the wild but by producing beautiful captive bred babies and selling them for rather low prices It kind of takes the need away for imports...... If you were in the market for a gaboon viper would you buy a stressedut, wormed up, parasite filled import for 150 to 200 dollars or a captive bred stress free baby for 75 dollars??? Most of what my snakes produce are sold before they are born..... And the ones I dont sell either stay with me or donated to zoos or other breeding projects....... But getting back to the point, venomoids are no good for us, the snake, or our hobby in general and really have no place here in our hobby...... I would never kiss a gaboon on the lips but I love them to death and would never go out of my way and spend money to have one altered or as I like to put it, butchered, so I can feel safe....... I have lots of confidence in my skills and I feel safe enough...... If I didnt I would not keep them.....

[Ed_r]

Baz one thing i think your forgetting. These people that are going to buy a void, will more than likely buy a few. Some of them are going to get pairs of voids. They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids. As we all know neonates are allot more prone to striking than adults. Also in many of species, the venom is a lot more toxic in the babies, than the adults ever wish they could be.

I think I need to correct BWSmith's analogy. A void is like one of those Porsche Kit cars that have the VW beetle engines. A TOTAL WANNABE!
There is NO place for voids in the world. Yes we keep snakes for our enjoyment but I don't have to alter my Boas. If you want to keep a hot, go through the proper channels to get educated on keeping them properly! It will cost someone allot less money, and they will get a much richer experience KNOWING their snake. And ANYONE that is going to buy a void , you know for a fact is going to have it outside showing it off to the whole neighborhood, just like the guy with the kit car. Most people that have families and children, should not need to feel macho anymore. You already impressed your spouse and the kids hopefully adore you because you are the father. If not your doing something drasticly wrong.
I keep snakes because I enjoy them, but mostly so I can educate my kids that they are not the evil devils servants that most would lead them to believe.

[BILLP]

I don't know if any one has already posted this link but on venomousreptles there is a long article on this very topic. He is the link www.venomousreptiles.com/articles/55. Also don't get me wrong I do not support venomoids in any way. But venomoids are another way that man has changed nature for his own enjoyment. Like declawing a cat or dehorning a bull. Also we say that we don't alter our snakes to keep them. But there are all kinds of albinos, color phases and other odd snakes out there. These are not an attempt to perserve nature because these snakes would not exist with out or manipulation. I am just bring up some point I do not support these Venomoids at all.

[BWSmith]

First of all I am thrilled that we have proponants from each side of the fence. And I am very happy that everything has stayed so civil.

I know how it feels to have a 18ft snake around my shoulders, or a cougar in my arms, a hawk on my fist, a alligator over my shoulder... it feels bloody good to spend time with these animals

All but the Hawk I can relate to. I feel honored to be able to interact with such magnifiscent creatures. And i find it insulting to nature to remove the one thing that made them what they were. In my opinion once a cobra is voided, it is no longer a cobra because the major defining charactaristic has been removed.

It's a rush to interact with powerful animals.

Yes it is. This I cannot deny. But it is a unique rush, unlike any other. For me it is like being overwhelmed with awe. And this is just entensified by the adrenaline (which i think definately helps in handling dangerous animals). If there is no rush, then one of two things is probably happening: You have lost the respect for the potential of the animal or you just really don't care. Either is dangerous. But what rush could one get from having a void?

When I look at a venomoid, in the back of my mind I see an old, decreped, and toothless Lion. Still the same species, but a pitiful shadow of its former glory, power, and majesty.

The one thing I noticed is that the majority of responsable hot keepers do not let many people know they are hot keepers

This is true. Most hot keepers are very reclusive and low profile. Flip the coin to void keepers. Now I admit that i have only known a few, but they ALL would walk around with a void in the most innapropriate places. Anywhere there was people, they took them. One had a void Canebrake Rattlesnake he would wear around neck while he was working at a PetCo. Now while the statement of most hot keepers being reclusive is true, I am very much the opposite. Given the work with Dept of Natural Resourcces, displays and various educational programs, I am actually a very high profile keeper. But not in my neighborhood

Since I am all over the place this morning i will continue

Some of them are going to get pairs of voids. They will breed. and guess what? The young are NOT voids.

LOL, you would be AMAZED how many people think that they babies will be voids and I have even heard Void dealers perpetuate this falsehood! Nothing is Het for Venomoid!

Relating to this, let's play the new game "WHAT THE HELL IS THE POINT?!" Our first contestant this morning, a venomoid het for albino monocled cobra that was advertised on KS classifieds..... everyone say it together now, "What the hell is the point?"

OK, I am going to leave this as it is right now until I get a couple cups of coffee in me.