New addition : 2015 Super granite checkered garter

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Machala2012

seems like a beautiful accident :P

Thanks! It really was unexpected.

[Albert Clark]

[QUOTE=ARCH3R;961229]

Originally Posted by ARCH3R

Yes definitely. Sorry, generalization on my part I'm not always the best at writing down explanations. You're pairing obviously does create the super form, I just can't spell out the gentetics w/o knowing if it's recessive, codom or incomplete dom and the chromosome pairing.

Irregardlessly (my favorite of all the made up words) that is one gorgeous snake! I do have a question about garters. Ever since I saw a picture I've wanted a san francisco garter, but who doesnt. I see ads for neon blue and red stripe garter snakes. Are those a different locale? I thought san francisco garter was an untouchable dream like the indigos.

No! I thought you explained your view quite clearly and I understood where you were at with it. Like I said I certainly could be wrong in the way I explained it and maybe this female granite is just a granite het pastel. I really am not sure. I know I popped her yesterday as a female when I previously thought it was a male. Lol.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

The mother of this visual granite baby's mother is pastel checkered 66% het for granite checkered. Sired by her father who is a visual pastel checkered 66% het for granite checkered. Original pair of pastel checkereds I purchased from Jeff Benfer as pastel checkered 66% het for granite checkered. Jeff Benfer actually was the original breeder of the granite checkered x pastel checkered pairing.

So let me understand this correctly.

The mother of this one you just had (congrats) is a pastel 66% het granite.

The father of this baby is also the father of the mother? Who also happens to be a pastel 66% het for granite?

If this is the case what was the original pairing to get the mother? I ask because as it stands to get the fathers offspring to be 66% the father would have to been bred to a 100% het female. And if the father produced a granite he would be considered 100% and thus the mother would be 50% and not 66%.

Now if the father was bred to a "normal" or another snake not carrying the granite gene then the babies would all be 33% het for granite and not 66%.

The good news in either case if this mother produced a granite then the odds were really in your favour

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

So let me understand this correctly.

The mother of this one you just had (congrats) is a pastel 66% het granite.

The father of this baby is also the father of the mother? Who also happens to be a pastel 66% het for granite?

If this is the case what was the original pairing to get the mother? I ask because as it stands to get the fathers offspring to be 66% the father would have to been bred to a 100% het female. And if the father produced a granite he would be considered 100% and thus the mother would be 50% and not 66%.

Now if the father was bred to a "normal" or another snake not carrying the granite gene then the babies would all be 33% het for granite and not 66%
The good news in either case if this mother produced a granite then the odds were really in your favour

The original pair were produced in the Jeff Benfer project of pastel checkered x granite checkered. They are both pastel checkered 66% het for granite checkered. This pair have only been bred to each other and the daughter from the original pair bred to her father and produced this granite checkered female hence super granite. There was another scrub that was stillborn but had the phenotype of a pastel checkered. No other bloodline in this pairing nor of the parents of the female that produced the granite. So the 33% is not a possibility.
Thanks for your take on it.

[Obsidian_Dragon]

Hmm. Does the granite mute the yellow of the pastel? Because the super pastels (sans granite) I've seen are more obviously yellow. Even the hets are, as babies.

ARCH3R, granite is only visible when homozygous. Pastel is...co-dom, sort of? Het babies are visually different from normals, in that they are far more yellow, but mature into the normal olive coloring. Homozygous or super pastels are visibly yellow as adults.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Obsidian_Dragon

Hmm. Does the granite mute the yellow of the pastel? Because the super pastels (sans granite) I've seen are more obviously yellow. Even the hets are, as babies.

ARCH3R, granite is only visible when homozygous. Pastel is...co-dom, sort of? Het babies are visually different from normals, in that they are far more yellow, but mature into the normal olive coloring. Homozygous or super pastels are visibly yellow as adults.

At least, that's my understanding of it.

Well, thanks for that. This girl is a tanned color with the black granite hashes (as you can see). She does appear to be the same color as when she was born. I guess time will tell. Most of the granites I have seen are a off white color with black hashing unless they were albino granite checkereds who are yellow. Thanks.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

The original pair were produced in the Jeff Benfer project of pastel checkered x granite checkered. They are both pastel checkered 66% het for granite checkered. This pair have only been bred to each other and the daughter from the original pair bred to her father and produced this granite checkered female hence super granite. There was another scrub that was stillborn but had the phenotype of a pastel checkered. No other bloodline in this pairing nor of the parents of the female that produced the granite. So the 33% is not a possibility.
Thanks for your take on it.

I think I still may be confused.

But whatever, my questions don't matter. What matters is yo ugot a cool looking baby.

[Albert Clark]

Thanks for shedding some light on the genetics though.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Thanks for shedding some light on the genetics though.

Np. I can do more but it might get more confusing for readers LOL.

[ARCH3R]

Obsidian- gotcha it's recessive and probably codom. Snake genetics are crazy aren't they? Mammalian traits are so much more visually identified. Multiple colors is codom, one color is incomplete, recessive or dominant but can easily be identified by the babies. With snakes it's a bit of a craps shoot at times. Look at the platinum gene on retics lol.

[Obsidian_Dragon]

Here's a super pastel (and in the background, a normal):

Photo was from the kingsnake ad where I got my little guy, so the snakes and photo belong to Brad Chambers, not I.

Here's a baby het pastel:

This IS my snake, and my photo.

~8 mos later you can kind of see how he's greened up a bit:


ANYWAY--that's why I was asking if it was a super pastel for sure as well as granite, because I want to know what granite does to the yellow! If anything. I've kicked around the idea of breeding these guys now and again, and couldn't find much about the interactions of the two.

I'm fascinated by the pattern along the neck of your little girl, there. Casual googling doesn't show that on other granites.

[Aaron_S]

Okay if it's known as a "super pastel" then it usually denotes it's an incomplete dominant trait. The "pastel" version is technically the "het" of the super pastel.

Therefore, there cannot be a "het pastel" unless it's recessive and the "pastel" would simply be the morph and there would be no super version.

To make things more confusing you can consider the pastel "het for super pastel".

[Albert Clark]

This is the updated pic of the super granite. Look at the head markings and patterning along with the coloration. pastel checkered 66% granite checkered x pastel checkered 66% granite checkered

[Albert Clark]

Here are pics of a pair of granites of a friend of mine. granite checkered x granite checkered

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

This is the updated pic of the super granite. Look at the head markings and patterning along with the coloration. pastel checkered 66% granite checkered x pastel checkered 66% granite checkered

We need a lesson in genetics.

1. As stated earlier, it can't be "het" something and also have a "super form". It denotes there's a "regular form". So either they are hets or are granites.

2. You no longer have 66% het granites. You have 100% het granites. They have proven to be carrying the gene.

We use 66% or 50% when trying to identify what babies may be carrying what genetics in a litter/clutch. It means that's the LIKELIHOOD of them carrying the recessive gene.

How do we get 66%? Glad you asked.

When breeding a 100% het x 100% het (animals that look normal but carry the desired gene) you have this break down of babies:
25% granite
50% het granite
25% normal

Because hets and normals look the same there's no way to officially tell them apart until breeding occurs. So we call them 66% since you have a 2 in 3 chance of them carrying the granite gene.
Once they breed and reproduce babies that carry granite their moniker changes from possible het to "het".

If I can breed one granite checkered to just any checkered and get granites then it's an incomplete dominant gene and they no longer can be "66% het granite".

Does this make sense?