Species progression?

[Derek Roddy]

Keeping any reptile comes down to one thing really.....observation skills. The rest is moot.

Snake is always on cool side of cage....it's too hot.
Snake is always on hot side of cage.....it's too cool.
Sitting in water bowl....too dry or pest.....

Even with breeding and hatching eggs....what works for me here in Florida might not work for those in Michigan. You have to have observation skills and a rounded overall knowledge of all snakes.

It's not rocket science. Haha.

I've had all types of snakes over the years and the only thing that helped me understanding the species was keeping that species.

All snakes are the same in that they're are cold blooded and they all have the same relative needs...give or take a few degrees but, they all have their own attributes and you can only learn those attributes is to experience it.

D

[Sublimeballs]

It really wouldn't be a species progression list so much as figuring out what reasons a person has for wanting a species and and suggesting something similar that is more suited to that individual person.

With hots that's what a lot of people have to do during the required training time to be able to own hots in regulated states. Racers, coachwhips, bull snakes, blood pythons, amazon tree boas, and some other stuff I've heard of being used during this training.

For large pythons I don't really see a stepping stone to a mainland retic other then maybe a super dwarf retic. But no matter what you can't simulate the strength of the animal.

[wareagleA5]

Originally Posted by Derek Roddy

Great question.

Keeping a corn can't "prepare" you for keeping a Boa, Keeping a Boa will not "prepare" you for keeping a BlackHead and keeping a BLackHead will not "prepare" you for keeping a Tiger snake.

The best way for anybody interested in learning about snakes (overall...no matter what the species) is not owning a snake at all.

Observation and basic understanding of a reptiles basic needs is all you need to successfully "house" any snake....big or small.
Observe them in their natural habitat, study their basic biology and work and listen to others who have experience working with said animals.

I think bad decisions are what actually cause issues with keeping various types of snakes.

If you have room for a retic and you understand the basic needs and requirements for keeping such an animal...you should have no issue.
Making a bad decision to keep a 16 foot animal in an apartment....is the actual problem. Not having the snake.

And making those decisions have nothing to do with species but, knowledge of yourself and, what you know you're capable of.

That is sometimes harder to understand than the animal.

D

I think you hit the nail right on the head, I've done that with a Nile monitor in an apartment and while having a job that had me away from home to much. Now that I'm older and I understand my disease, impulsiveness, I'm trying not to over do it while I wait on a long long list for my Red Ackies.

[Terranaut]

I agree with Derek in both of his posts. Starter or progression snakes are for those who learn by making husbandry mistakes and not those who can get their "stuff" together first. This is solely in the hands of the keeper and not the snake. If you get the proper enclosure set up with the proper husbandry and follow a proper diet plan....it should not matter what you have had before. Another bad point is that people will sell or give their "prep snake" away once they buy the dream snake. These things live 20+yrs. Not fair for a corn to be turffed in favor of a retic. Or whatever snakes you want to swap with those.

[jpsteele80]

Originally Posted by red ink

So how does dealing with a ball or a corn prepare you for a cobra... neither of which are a cobra?

Then why do they consider green trees and bloods for intermediate keepers and retics and burms for advanced keepers, why have a range at all just tell beginners if you have done your research you ready to jump straight into vipers and cobras, I believe this is done so you can be ready for when you do get that animal you want. I've been keeping Reptiles for a little over 20 years and I'd love a pair of eyelash vipers and have probably done a good 3 years researching them and could nail everything down husbandry wise no problem but wouldn't feel comfortable working with hots until I had done so with someone experienced. You telling someone if you have done research that your ready, what happens when someone gets that retic and it's the spawn of satan, that research doesn't prepare you for that, working with another demon snake that's smaller prepares you for that. It's just a difference of opinion is all.

[Terranaut]

A demon corn will not prepare you for a demon retic. Having 3 or 4 friends helping will. Getting proper knowledge is also not the same as googling it and hoping you know everything.

[jpsteele80]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

A demon corn will not prepare you for a demon retic. Having 3 or 4 friends helping will. Getting proper knowledge is also not the same as googling it and hoping you know everything.

I agree with what your saying to an extent, in the end it's all going to come down to the individual and there going to get what they want to get anyways, but I think that's a reason that so many animals are re homed is because people are not prepared to take care of them.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by jpsteele80

Then why do they consider green trees and bloods for intermediate keepers and retics and burms for advanced keepers, why have a range at all just tell beginners if you have done your research you ready to jump straight into vipers and cobras, I believe this is done so you can be ready for when you do get that animal you want. I've been keeping Reptiles for a little over 20 years and I'd love a pair of eyelash vipers and have probably done a good 3 years researching them and could nail everything down husbandry wise no problem but wouldn't feel comfortable working with hots until I had done so with someone experienced. You telling someone if you have done research that your ready, what happens when someone gets that retic and it's the spawn of satan, that research doesn't prepare you for that, working with another demon snake that's smaller prepares you for that. It's just a difference of opinion is all.

Who's "they"? How can "they" set the gauge for "levels" of keeping?

I was working with a PhD student doing research into the colour vision of vens when I was at Uni. He has never kept a snake in their life but I wouldn't tell him. "Don't keep a taipan" if he chose to because he hadn't kept a "beginner" species.

"They"... seem to be elitist know it alls from my point of view. You just can't go around telling people they can't keep this or can't keep that because of preconceive notion of their level of ability or lack there off from keeping a "beginner" species.

The "range" is there because people choose to believe it. I for one don't.

So if someone who has never kept snakes... done the same 3 years of research as yourself then got somebody with experience to guide them:

Come time to purchase the eyelash viper it's a "no"... go and keep a "beginner" species first because you've never kept a beginner snake?

[Mikoh4792]

I don't believe in the progression mindset. I think it comes down to the individual person's ability and willingness to learn and prepare.

[Sublimeballs]

I said it already to have properly researched an animal at the extremes were talking about getting hands on experience in all aspects of keeping is needed. You need to actually know what you're getting into, the Internet can't help you with that.

With big snakes you need to know what it feels like to know you arnt in control and can only influence the animal so much without a lot of effort from multiple people.

With hots you need experience with fast and angery snakes and someone teachimg you. You need to have safety down 100% and never waiver or get over confident and take risks. You should know every aspect of the animal you plan to get and have emergency bite protocol within sight of the cage. And be prepared for a bite, know where anti venom is for your species.

Both of these groups of snakes arnt for your average hobbyist. And come with great risk to you and others.

[jpsteele80]

Originally Posted by red ink

Who's "they"? How can "they" set the gauge for "levels" of keeping?

I was working with a PhD student doing research into the colour vision of vens when I was at Uni. He has never kept a snake in their life but I wouldn't tell him. "Don't keep a taipan" if he chose to because he hadn't kept a "beginner" species.

"They"... seem to be elitist know it alls from my point of view. You just can't go around telling people they can't keep this or can't keep that because of preconceive notion of their level of ability or lack there off from keeping a "beginner" species.

The "range" is there because people choose to believe it. I for one don't.

So if someone who has never kept snakes... done the same 3 years of research as yourself then got somebody with experience to guide them:

Come time to purchase the eyelash viper it's a "no"... go and keep a "beginner" species first because you've never kept a beginner snake?

I get what your saying and I have never told anyone that they can't get something, yeah I may recommend something a little easier to keep if it's a beginner and I have seen people do great going into what would be considered an advanced species and I have seen people prove my point of getting something they didn't need and end up re homing it. When I say "they" I ment the general community and what has been the general consensus for years, yeah that obviously needs to change as I agree with a lot of what your saying, but as far as hots I don't agree that someone that has never kept a snake but has done research on them should jump into them but that's just my opinion. One mistake and it could cost you your life.

[Terranaut]

Originally Posted by jpsteele80

I but I think that's a reason that so many animals are re homed is because people are not prepared to take care of them.

Had they have gained the knowledge they should have...they would be prepared. I also believe these are animals and not stamps we collect. Get one in hopes of it teaching you so you can get the real one you want also makes for "give away" snakes. Learn what you need to get what you want.

[jpsteele80]

Originally Posted by Terranaut

Had they have gained the knowledge they should have...they would be prepared. I also believe these are animals and not stamps we collect. Get one in hopes of it teaching you so you can get the real one you want also makes for "give away" snakes. Learn what you need to get what you want.

I agree they are animals and not stamps and I have never advocated to get rid of an animal once you move on. Like I said I agree with a lot of what your saying.

[Derek Roddy]

Originally Posted by Sublimeballs

With hots that's what a lot of people have to do during the required training time to be able to own hots in regulated states. Racers, coachwhips, bull snakes, blood pythons, amazon tree boas, and some other stuff I've heard of being used during this training.

I know a dozen "venomous" trainers here in florida and none of them use nothing but hots to "train" understudies.

I have never seen or heard of them training with anything other than hots. What good would it do to train with a snake that acts nothing like other snakes?

The biggest excuse I used to hear about keepers wanting venomiods cobras was "so, I can learn about cobras". The only way you can learn about "cobras".....it to work with "CobraS"....not A cobra.

They all have different personalities and actions....even from sub species to sub species. It's very short sighted to think that having one cobra will teach you about all cobras....much less having a racer teach you about them. haha.

And what's funny about that is.... every keeper I ever heard make that statement about having a vemomiod.....has been biten by a non vemoniod.

Don't fall into that trap....because it is a trap.

Learn yourself first....then worry about the animal.

D

[Sublimeballs]

Derek the racer isn't getting you used to a cobra. It gets you used to being careful around snakes in general. And so your mentor can assess what if anything that is going to get you killed in your handleing techniques. This is how my cousins training was. As I said another species can't prepare you for something different. But with hots any all experience is helpful.