Stage 3 (Dry Season)

[murrindindi]

"Attack"???
This is NOT ABOUT THE WILD, it`s about CAPTIVITY, and how we can all best support them HERE. That means passing on info that has been shown to work as opposed to the mountain of info that doesn`t, that we all have to sift through constantly!
The best way for you to learn is to keep it as simple as possible, not complicate it with unnecessary risks.....
I guess you`ve got what you wanted so far; some attention.....

[formica]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

"Attack"???
This is NOT ABOUT THE WILD, it`s about CAPTIVITY, and how we can all best support them HERE. That means passing on info that has been shown to work as opposed to the mountain of info that doesn`t, that we all have to sift through constantly!
The best way for you to learn is to keep it as simple as possible, not complicate it with unnecessary risks.....
I guess you`ve got what you wanted so far; some attention.....

Its a genuine shame you cannot get over your ego and join in the discussion. please leave the thread alone if all you want to do is attack me. thanks.

[B_Aller]

Formica, Why call this an experiment? It's clearly not. You have already drawn your conclusions. You have no control group, no baseline to work with and you don't know what normal is, bloodwork or otherwise.
It's hilarious to me that you think this has never been done and that you are the first, this is what ALL newbies who think their serious do, trust me I know 'cause I did it too.
Problem is experience kinda throws a wrench in all the nonsense you propose.
This is the vicious cycle that results in the captive death of monitors. Before any of the useful techniques can be established, newbs such as yourself decide it's up to them to reinvent the wheel. Now I'm the first to point out the difference between the wheels on an ancient chariot and the tires on a formula one race car....problem is you still have to learn to drive. You don't even have your learners permit Formica, yet you want to speed...I'll watch from the sidelines as the wheels fall off!
Good luck.

[Mikoh4792]

very poetic

[formica]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

Formica, Why call this an experiment? It's clearly not. You have already drawn your conclusions. You have no control group, no baseline to work with and you don't know what normal is, bloodwork or otherwise.
It's hilarious to me that you think this has never been done and that you are the first, this is what ALL newbies who think their serious do, trust me I know 'cause I did it too.
Problem is experience kinda throws a wrench in all the nonsense you propose.
This is the vicious cycle that results in the captive death of monitors. Before any of the useful techniques can be established, newbs such as yourself decide it's up to them to reinvent the wheel. Now I'm the first to point out the difference between the wheels on an ancient chariot and the tires on a formula one race car....problem is you still have to learn to drive. You don't even have your learners permit Formica, yet you want to speed...I'll watch from the sidelines as the wheels fall off!
Good luck.

I have not drawn conclusions, I have hypothesized about what may or may not happen, and outlined my plan to test it, and described the limitations of what I am trying to do and the limitations of any possible analysis or conclusions.

If you have done this, I would be interested to hear about it. It would be very useful not just to myself, but also the myriad of other people who have asked the same questions - the reason I am posting this on this website, is because I want input from experienced people, I am not doing this and ignoring what people say - the only thing I am questioning, is the belief that a major part of a Savs life cycle is not important, because no scientific evidence has been presented to say it is so, and there is a huge amount of evidence to suggest that it probably is important, but overlooked. I am not attacking anyones practices, I am asking valid questions, for which no one is willing to provide any answer other than ''your a newbie you dont have any right to question it''.

I do not need to know what baseline blood test results should be, I am not trained in blood analysis, thats what I am paying the specialist for, he will tell me what they should be, what they are, and how/if they have changed.

I would like to hear what you did when you tried this, you are the first person to say that you have tried it, i'd like to know what you did and how, and what the outcomes where, and how you measured them. I'm sure I am not the only person who would find that interesting and valuable information.

[infernalis]

My only opinion, is that 99.999% of the keepers out there are housing their animals in a nearly perpetual dry season.

Getting real, unless you have an aquifer under your substrate, drain fields and overhead sprinklers that you can sometimes cycle for 10+ hours at a time, you will never truly create a wet season, so I can't see any point in attempting to recreate the drought conditions other people are already doing?

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

My only opinion, is that 99.999% of the keepers out there are housing their animals in a nearly perpetual dry season.

Getting real, unless you have an aquifer under your substrate, drain fields and overhead sprinklers that you can sometimes cycle for 10+ hours at a time, you will never truly create a wet season, so I can't see any point in attempting to recreate the drought conditions other people are already doing?

funny you should mention an aquifer...my full size build is being designed with that in mind, aerated concrete blocks will form the base, 3ft high, with a foot of drainage at the bottom, substrate separated by a steel mesh, fine gravel and more areated concrete, a big pump system with sprinklers, possibly filtered thru an Aquaponics system (for crayfish and other foods) - the idea is to create a ''water table'', at the base of the enclosure

However, I've not yet found a way of moving enough water thru the system, without eroding significant amounts of substrate (been playing with ideas on a small scale)...but I will find a way to do it, have a few more design ideas to play with

[pdomensis]

Originally Posted by formica

However, I've not yet found a way of moving enough water thru the system, without eroding significant amounts of substrate (been playing with ideas on a small scale)...but I will find a way to do it, have a few more design ideas to play with

That's what plants and roots are for. The microbiotic fauna that lives around the roots produces a substance called glomalin which acts as a glue holding soil together. Above ground biomass from the plants also intercepts the water and reduces impact damage on the soil.

[formica]

Originally Posted by pdomensis

That's what plants and roots are for. The microbiotic fauna that lives around the roots produces a substance called glomalin which acts as a glue holding soil together. Above ground biomass from the plants also intercepts the water and reduces impact damage on the soil.

yeah I had some success with grasses in a previous setup, Monitors make fast work of plants tho, i'd need to let the enclosure grow for quite some time to get a good root system, the enclosure will be well planted up with fast growing grasses, but I need a fail safe way of keeping the soil out of the water table - aerated concrete is good for that, but its slow to drain, so its a matter of balancing the water flow and drainage

interesting re glomalin, is that something which can be bought synthetically, or any specific plants which produce it particularly quickly?

[pdomensis]

Might look into some kind of geotextile fabric as a soil/water barrier, but it won't stop the disintigration of the soil peds. An extruded geogrid (Geo-Grids.com - Grass Grids, Geo Grid, Plastic Pavers) might also prevent digging in certain areas.

As for glomalin, no it's not synthetically or commercially available. Agronomists are just starting to realize how important it is. The closest thing I can think of would be polyacrylamide (PAM) which is used to line canals to prevent water loss. There's a lot of work going into developing multi-species mixtures to use in crop rotations to build soil health. The basic rule is, more diverse plant communities support more diverse soil fauna which translates to better soil and less erosion.

[smy_749]

Won't get into the argument here, but I think steel mesh is a bad idea with a species that will probably burrow down till he reaches it. Can imagine he will shred through it, or get caught in it and lose some nails or something.

[formica]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Won't get into the argument here, but I think steel mesh is a bad idea with a species that will probably burrow down till he reaches it. Can imagine he will shred through it, or get caught in it and lose some nails or something.

I dont mean mesh like chicken wire, but 2mm thick perforated sheet, then 1.5inch aerated concrete slabs on top, then various grades of gravel, then the substrate. I dont imagine even a monitor could get thru aerated concrete?

Originally Posted by pdomensis

Might look into some kind of geotextile fabric as a soil/water barrier, but it won't stop the disintigration of the soil peds. An extruded geogrid (Geo-Grids.com - Grass Grids, Geo Grid, Plastic Pavers) might also prevent digging in certain areas.

As for glomalin, no it's not synthetically or commercially available. Agronomists are just starting to realize how important it is. The closest thing I can think of would be polyacrylamide (PAM) which is used to line canals to prevent water loss. There's a lot of work going into developing multi-species mixtures to use in crop rotations to build soil health. The basic rule is, more diverse plant communities support more diverse soil fauna which translates to better soil and less erosion.

interesting thanks, yeah did a bit of reading about it, seems that time is the only real way to get it built up. although i've found the topic of ''soil glue'' now, so more research to do, thanks!

[Pirarucu]

I believe that this is an extremely unnecessary and potentially risky undertaking, mainly because it accomplishes nothing. They whether the dry season because they have to, not because it is good for them. Case in point, Ghana's dry season is far shorter than countries such as senegal, and the Savs are much more common in Ghana, as they are not restricted to areas around water like the ones in Senegal. Moreover, changing the environment serves no purpose, even assuming withholding food has the benefits you suggested. The reason is that they whether the dry season by staying where it is still humid as much as possible, using their burrows. It does not change the environment they will keep themselves in, it just limits their use of the cage.
If you are going with the assumption that withholding food helps them repair their DNA (and I still don't see the links you said you would be posting) why not stop feeding while leaving their environment the same? Why unnecessarily subject them to harsh conditions that they try their utmost to avoid?

I'll be interested to see your results, but I'm not sure how you intend to determine whether you have been "successful" or not, without having a larger test group, the DNA testing, or having owned savs using conventional methods already to have a base line.

[formica]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

I believe that this is an extremely unnecessary and potentially risky undertaking, mainly because it accomplishes nothing. They whether the dry season because they have to, not because it is good for them. Case in point, Ghana's dry season is far shorter than countries such as senegal, and the Savs are much more common in Ghana, as they are not restricted to areas around water like the ones in Senegal. Moreover, changing the environment serves no purpose, even assuming withholding food has the benefits you suggested. The reason is that they whether the dry season by staying where it is still humid as much as possible, using their burrows. It does not change the environment they will keep themselves in, it just limits their use of the cage.
If you are going with the assumption that withholding food helps them repair their DNA (and I still don't see the links you said you would be posting) why not stop feeding while leaving their environment the same? Why unnecessarily subject them to harsh conditions that they try their utmost to avoid?

I'll be interested to see your results, but I'm not sure how you intend to determine whether you have been "successful" or not, without having a larger test group, the DNA testing, or having owned savs using conventional methods already to have a base line.

When an animals metabolism changes, all sorts of things change in its physiology, and for many animals, the changes can be very important and beneficial.

When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area

Testing DNA repair is not practical or within my budget, although testing for the hormones involved might be, i plan on discussing that with the vet tomorrow


How will i know if its successful? Well you are right, it is very difficult to give a firm answer to that, there could be obvious positives or obvious negatives, or there may be no discernible differences. time will tell

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by formica

When an animals metabolism changes, all sorts of things change in its physiology, and for many animals, the changes can be very important and beneficial.

When a monitor is forced to escape the harsh above ground conditions, to the cool humid conditions of a burrow, its metabolism slows, simply because it is cooled down, this might be important, after all, they do it for months at a time, and nature does not do things simply for the sake of it, it takes advantage of everything in its environment and adapts to those conditions in ways which often are not apparently logically, at first - we dont know, it hasnt been studied in monitors, or if it has, I havent found it published anywhere, nor has anyone that I have asked about it - but it has been studied in many other , reptiles, mammals and invertebrates, and in some cases been found to not only be beneficial, but in some cases, essential

If food is withheld, but the same temperature and humidity is provided, it will not force the monitor to retreat to a cool and humid area, because it will remain active and searching for food, therefore its metabolism will not change, and so the physiological changes associated with a lowered metabolism, which it has evolved to deal with and which may have a beneficial affect (as it does in many other animals), do not occur.

I have been asking for months, for people to give me tempreture readings from inside burrows, and have gathered as many as I could from peoples wild observations, and used them to come up with the model for the cool and humid burrowing area to which my Sav can escape too from the dry and hot area

Testing DNA repair is not practical or within my budget, although testing for the hormones involved might be, i plan on discussing that with the vet tomorrow


How will i know if its successful? Well you are right, it is very difficult to give a firm answer to that, there could be obvious positives or obvious negatives, or there may be no discernible differences. time will tell

Here's my problem with what you are saying. Your decision is based entirely on your presumption that you need to force them to go and cool down. Why not simply provide an opportunity to cool down (burrows) and not mess with above ground conditions? While your response will, I'm sure, be about the need to trigger the behavior with an environmental change, I'd like to bring up a point you mentioned in the last thread this idea was discussed in.

Originally Posted by formica

DB has noted on his website (mampam i think?), that some monitors have been known to spend weeks on end in cool areas of a house, when given the run of the house, not moving, not eating, just chilling, literally, in the cool spot, even when hotter is available, and then after a while going back to the warm area to resume normal life, DB noted that this may well have been an intentional 'brumnation'/'aestivatin' by the monitor

If they will go and stay in the cool spot intentionally and voluntarily, even when conditions are not changed, why would one attempt to force the behavior?