Snakes ARE affectionate - Page 11

**millertime89** · 04-24-15, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoPhilly

I don't, however think they feel love and affection for me. I feel it for them, most definitely. When they do adorable things like flick at my face and get my eyelashes (adorable and tickly!) I feel the same way that I feel when my dog does something cute. There's no difference in my feeling. However, I don't need the snakes to love me in order to love the snakes, and I think it's both more interesting, and actually more caring, to think about their behaviors from a reptilian or scientific point of view, than to imagine that they love me back.

I think my snakes 1. Recognize my scent, 2. Have come to believe over time that I am not harmful and 3. Are inquisitive and like to explore outside of their cages sometimes, including in my sleeves/shirt/hair. I think I am a known "safe zone" of interesting warmth. I do think they "trust" me over other people - because I am the familiar scent (Pheromone signature? What would you call it? Help me out guys).

I'm not a scientist, but I think what the snake has internalized is:
Picked up by me= interesting warm jungle gym
Picked up by boyfriend= terrifyingly thrown around

Also, when my boyfriend is holding this snake, even calmly, if I put my hand nearby, the snake will attempt to crawl to me instead. My boyfriend has actually joked "He loves you more than me (pout)" and I've always said no, he's just decided I'm safer for whatever reason. (Can't imagine)

Also, just my $.02, if you have a snake that struggles wildly to not be put back into its enclosure, you may want to check the temps/humidity in there. I have a snake that would do that (aww, right? She loves me!), and when I finally checked, the probe wasn't working and the new one shot up to almost 100 degrees the second I put it in there. (PSA: Get thermostats, people. You need a thermostat) Once I fixed it, she doesn't do that anymore. Not saying that's true in every case, or that you are being negligent of your snakes at all, Sophie, but I think part of the reason people on this forum get so frustrated when this topic comes up is that this is a public space, and who knows what impressionable kid is reading this right now. People on here can be really committed to making sure the facts are straight, and it can sometimes really be worth wondering why snakes are actually doing the things they are - from a non-human point of view.

Awesome. I don't have to type my opinion. This is pretty much 100% what I think.

**Aaron_S** · 04-24-15, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuxodom

I've heard - from a few herp specialty shops - that there is something with the GTP. ETB spines/skeletal system in that they shouldn't be handled (much) as they can...for lack of a better term..."break."

I didn't delve into researching this at all, though. But I found it odd that several different places said basically the same thing. Ever hear of this?

Now that I rethink of it, it seems very illogical, but I don't know...

As young snakes it may true. They have a very frail form, especially as you get closer to their tails. They don't have the structure of our more heavy bodied snakes so they should be handled with a bit more of a gentle hand.

Otherwise those people are talking about old stories that just aren't true anymore.

**lady_bug87** · 04-24-15, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuxodom

I've heard - from a few herp specialty shops - that there is something with the GTP. ETB spines/skeletal system in that they shouldn't be handled (much) as they can...for lack of a better term..."break."

I didn't delve into researching this at all, though. But I found it odd that several different places said basically the same thing. Ever hear of this?

Now that I rethink of it, it seems very illogical, but I don't know...

It's true. They shouldn't be handled before their color change. If there is damage to the prehensile tail they could have issues eating since they eat upside down.

Extra care is needed when you're handling arboreal snakes. Its not so much an issue with ATBs since they're semi arboreal

RAD House · 04-24-15, 10:55 AM

Fair enough.

RAD House · 04-24-15, 11:27 AM

From a completely evolutionary view there is no such thing as an interesting warm jungle gym. Anything as large and warm as a human would be seen as a threat by most if not all snakes in the wild. The fact that they learn to trust you shows something beyond instinct.

**lady_bug87** · 04-24-15, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

From a completely evolutionary view there is no such thing as an interesting warm jungle gym. Anything as large and warm as a human would be seen as a threat by most if not all snakes in the wild. The fact that they learn to trust you shows something beyond instinct.

Sun baked rockscape. warm junfle floor, mammal dens.

Also it's not just instinct. They know they have experienced the same set of.smells and didn't die. Nothing ate them. Again intelligence doesn't equal love.

RAD House · 04-24-15, 11:33 AM

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

sophiedufort · 04-24-15, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

Wonderfully said

eminart · 04-24-15, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Eminart no has specifically studied love in snakes as our understanding of their brains is not even close to being developed to that point. We are now just beginning to understand love in the biological sense in humans. She is stating her opinion. Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love? The answer is no don't bother looking.

I can't find a peer-reviewed article stating that dogs can't learn algebra either. Wonder why that is?

Also, have you ever heard of "burden of proof"? I'll summarize. If you make a positive claim (i.e. snakes love) then the burden is on you to prove that. Now, if you knew anything about debate, you'd counter by saying I'm making a positive claim that I know snakes do not love. But, you'd be failing to acknowledge that I'm simply following what all the evidence points toward, and the consensus of all scientific thought on the matter to this point.

sophiedufort · 04-24-15, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eminart

Also, have you ever heard of "burden of proof"? I'll summarize. If you make a positive claim (i.e. snakes love) then the burden is on you to prove that. Now, if you knew anything about debate, you'd counter by saying I'm making a positive claim that I know snakes do not love. But, you'd be failing to acknowledge that I'm simply following what all the evidence points toward, and the consensus of all scientific thought on the matter to this point.

Let me ask this, please: what type of evidence is suitable for you? I am curious, mainly because I started this thread as a result of consistent snake behavior that I believe to be affectionate. I didn't start this thread just for the sake of the topic. My snakes, whom I handle daily, display signs of affection, and that's a fact. Also called evidence. I am not going to relist all the examples I provided in earlier posts. Only one of them, that is quite compelling. Missy, my Dumeril's boa, will not leave me or my husband. She loves kisses on the side of the head, and comes back for more, poking at my lips. She 'massages' my neck (I am sure you all know what I'm talking about) ONLY when I have migraines. Each and every time. She will only stop if I move her away. She will not do the massage when I feel well. Primitive or not, snakes' displays of affection are there. Not everybody notices or recognizes them. Some people have dozens of snakes throughout their life, and they just go through a care routine, day in, day out, without learning anything new from it, but still thinking that they know just about everything about snakes.
So, getting back to my question In what way the factual description of my snakes' behavior fails to constitute suitable evidence that snakes can show affection? Is it because I am not a scientist? I just don't get it.

eminart · 04-24-15, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

Let me ask this, please: what type of evidence is suitable for you? I am curious, mainly because I started this thread as a result of consistent snake behavior that I believe to be affectionate. I didn't start this thread just for the sake of the topic. My snakes, whom I handle daily, display signs of affection, and that's a fact. Also called evidence. I am not going to relist all the examples I provided in earlier posts. Only one of them, that is quite compelling. Missy, my Dumeril's boa, will not leave me or my husband. She loves kisses on the side of the head, and comes back for more, poking at my lips. She 'massages' my neck (I am sure you all know what I'm talking about) ONLY when I have migraines. Each and every time. She will only stop if I move her away. She will not do the massage when I feel well. Primitive or not, snakes' displays of affection are there. Not everybody notices or recognizes them. Some people have dozens of snakes throughout their life, and they just go through a care routine, day in, day out, without learning anything new from it, but still thinking that they know just about everything about snakes.
So, getting back to my question In what way the factual description of my snakes' behavior fails to constitute suitable evidence that snakes can show affection? Is it because I am not a scientist? I just don't get it.

In short, I reject every bit of this as evidence. Because it isn't evidence. Your personal experiences do not equal science. All of those behaviors can be explained in ways that do not involve love and affection.

Science doesn't only set out to confirm a set of beliefs, it also conducts experiments to eliminate all other answers.

What would convince me is scientific evidence. Actual studies. Scientists rationally conducting experiments without the taint of their own emotion and wishes.

And again, WHY would a snake have evolved emotional affection? There is ZERO reason to believe that reptiles love. Personal experience is not evidence. There are people who sincerely believe, and will tell you, while in tears, that they were abducted by aliens and anally probed.

sophiedufort · 04-24-15, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eminart

Personal experience is not evidence. There are people who sincerely believe, and will tell you, while in tears, that they were abducted by aliens and anally probed.

I think that your example brushes too much on extremes, and it does not bring justice to your comments.

Derek Roddy · 04-24-15, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Can you find a peer reviewed paper supporting that snakes have no ability to love?

Sure you can....it's called the evolution of the reptile brain and it exist in the form of 1000's of researchers worldwide who have studied the capabilities and advancements in reptile brains.

In fact, any paper you read on the subject will give you this information...if you understand what you are reading

D

RAD House · 04-24-15, 11:39 AM

Excuse me lady bug I didn't think I needed to clarify I meant a living, breathing, warm jungle gym. If you agree they are more intelligent than people give them credit then whose to say that we know that they don't have the brain chemistry known as love. Please don't confuse what I am saying with that I believe my snakes love me like my future wife does.

**lady_bug87** · 04-24-15, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

Excuse me lady bug I didn't think I needed to clarify I meant a living, breathing, warm jungle gym. If you agree they are more intelligent than people give them credit then whose to say that we know that they don't have the brain chemistry known as love. Please don't confuse what I am saying with that I believe my snakes love me like my future wife does.

What use would a solitary animal have for love? Or anything even remotely resembling it?