Snakes ARE affectionate

[RAD House]

What the op is trying to say is maybe we don't understand the reptile brain as much as we pretend to. Personally I know I own reptiles my own enjoyment solely, but I agree that there is a chance people under estimate the capabilities of the creatures.
Aaron I understand lady bug may be a long time members or even a friend but if you are giving the op a warning I think you should extend the threat of consequence. Most of her posts have been pointless and antagonistic, but that is just my opinion.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

What the op is trying to say is maybe we don't understand the reptile brain as much as we pretend to. Personally I know I own reptiles my own enjoyment solely, but I agree that there is a chance people under estimate the capabilities of the creatures.
Aaron I understand lady bug may be a long time members or even a friend but if you are giving the options a warning I think you should extend the threat of consequence. Most of her posts have been pointless and antagonistic, but that is just my opinion.

.... interesting

[sophiedufort]

Thank you, MesoCorney, you nailed it. That's what I'm trying to say. Also, it gives me satisfaction to think that my reptiles love me back, it is quite rewarding. I am blessed to have wonderful snakes, all calm and trusting, I never got bitten by a snake, and I really think that they are the best pets. I also think that they are misunderstood, and that so many unfair myths were carved in stone and are there to stay for a long time to come.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Nuxodom

Of course. Such snakes - like the Emerald Tree Boa and Green Tree Python are not great animals for handling, but are quite beautiful (I've always wanted one myself, but, wont get one due to their aggression).

No snake is aggressive. Defensive or ready to eat. Not aggressive. It's small but it's a pet peeve of mine when people call snakes aggressive. It perpetuates a stigma within the general public. Different word choices can mean a lot of difference.

Originally Posted by Nuxodom

Research. Books, research papers estimating the length of the particular snake's lifespan in years. Experts testimony of the snake's lifespan. Regular vet checkups.

Awesome. So are these research papers including captivity? What are the control groups in these papers? What sort of research did they do? Did they take into account the captive diets of our animals? Did you get necropsies done to find out each cause of death? I'd be interested in reading a study on how captive snakes are dying. Is it old age? Cancer? Tumours? We don't really know as most people chalk it upto "just is".

I'm not saying you're experiences are wrong. As you said they are just your experiences. I've had them too. Mine disagree with yours in how to handle snakes at length. To each their own.

Good thing about a lot of snakes we keep is that they are very forgiving of our poor care choices sometimes. Hell, a buddy of mine had a female ball python retain eggs and she still ate! Ball pythons eat when in distress and unfortunately he thought this was a sign that all was well and the snake ended up passing.

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

A divided topic does not necessarily mean antagonism, unless people make it that way. I was looking forward to civilized opinions, and I got plenty of them in this thread. As I said, I respect them. Why do you people assume that having a different opinion is antagonizing? What is this forum for, if I should be afraid of stating my opinion in a civilized manner? Did you create it just because it makes you feel good to patronize everyone? Who's the hypocrite here?

I have not once said that your opinion is antagonizing. In fact if you read my posts they say it's open and welcome. However, how you treat/talk to others who oppose that opinion is where things become unclear. You say you respect them but your words say otherwise.

I didn't create the forum by the way. So no, it's not here to feel good about anything. You're welcome to leave it though if it isn't suiting your needs.

Originally Posted by MesoCorney

What the op is trying to say is maybe we don't understand the reptile brain as much as we pretend to. Personally I know I own reptiles my own enjoyment solely, but I agree that there is a chance people under estimate the capabilities of the creatures.
Aaron I understand lady bug may be a long time members or even a friend but if you are giving the op a warning I think you should extend the threat of consequence. Most of her posts have been pointless and antagonistic, but that is just my opinion.

You're welcome to your opinion. However, do not tell or share how I should moderate the forum or this thread. You have no clue on who I've warned in private or otherwise. If you don't have all the facts then maybe your opinion should be kept to yourself.

If you're so inclined you're welcome to send me a PM. Funny enough, no one has sent me one yet to talk to me one on one. If you have an issue, I welcome the message.

[millertime89]

Well this blew up since I went to bed... I've come across quite a few GTPs, ETBs, and ATBs that were handleable. I think like we're seeing with bloods now and have seen with retics is just a matter of time to get more cbb animals into the cages and hands of hobbyists and the stories of bad attitudes will go away.

I'll weigh in with my opinion later. Posting from my phone sucks.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by millertime89

Well this blew up since I went to bed... I've come across quite a few GTPs, ETBs, and ATBs that were handleable. I think like we're seeing with bloods now and have seen with retics is just a matter of time to get more cbb animals into the cages and hands of hobbyists and the stories of bad attitudes will go away.

I'll weigh in with my opinion later. Posting from my phone sucks.

You wouldn't say they're learning to love us. You'd attribute it to domestication

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

You wouldn't say they're learning to love us. You'd attribute it to domestication

100%. It's selective breeding which is the way natural selection occurs in captivity which is a part of evolution.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by millertime89

100%. It's selective breeding which is the way natural selection occurs in captivity which is a part of evolution.

Exactly! nothing to do with love.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

As young snakes it may true. They have a very frail form, especially as you get closer to their tails. They don't have the structure of our more heavy bodied snakes so they should be handled with a bit more of a gentle hand.

Otherwise those people are talking about old stories that just aren't true anymore.

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

It's true. They shouldn't be handled before their color change. If there is damage to the prehensile tail they could have issues eating since they eat upside down.

Extra care is needed when you're handling arboreal snakes. Its not so much an issue with ATBs since they're semi arboreal

Thanks guys!

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Exactly! nothing to do with love.

Not one bit and I love my snakes very much.

[prairiepanda]

Originally Posted by millertime89

100%. It's selective breeding which is the way natural selection occurs in captivity which is a part of evolution.

I've never heard of a snake breeder selecting for personality traits. Maybe there are some that I've never heard of, but the overwhelming majority of snake breeders select for visual traits. So selective breeding has nothing to do with it. Also, selective breeding in captivity is artificial selection, not natural selection. What makes captive snakes easier to tame is having human exposure and captive care conditions from birth.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by prairiepanda

I've never heard of a snake breeder selecting for personality traits. Maybe there are some that I've never heard of, but the overwhelming majority of snake breeders select for visual traits. So selective breeding has nothing to do with it. Also, selective breeding in captivity is artificial selection, not natural selection. What makes captive snakes easier to tame is having human exposure and captive care conditions from birth.

There are breeders that breed for temperament

[Nuxodom]

Originally Posted by millertime89

Well this blew up since I went to bed... I've come across quite a few GTPs, ETBs, and ATBs that were handleable. I think like we're seeing with bloods now and have seen with retics is just a matter of time to get more cbb animals into the cages and hands of hobbyists and the stories of bad attitudes will go away.

I'll weigh in with my opinion later. Posting from my phone sucks.

I've heard - from a few herp specialty shops - that there is something with the GTP. ETB spines/skeletal system in that they shouldn't be handled (much) as they can...for lack of a better term..."break."

I didn't delve into researching this at all, though. But I found it odd that several different places said basically the same thing. Ever hear of this?

Now that I rethink of it, it seems very illogical, but I don't know...

[SoPhilly]

Look, I get where you're coming from, Sophie - I have Boas (Epicrates/Chilobothrus), which are generally among the more handleable of snakes, which is part of why I like them. Part of what is interesting for me is to be able to have contact with such a beautiful and fascinating creature. I only handle about once a week when I clean cage "furniture", but I handle for a while.

I don't, however think they feel love and affection for me. I feel it for them, most definitely. When they do adorable things like flick at my face and get my eyelashes (adorable and tickly!) I feel the same way that I feel when my dog does something cute. There's no difference in my feeling. However, I don't need the snakes to love me in order to love the snakes, and I think it's both more interesting, and actually more caring, to think about their behaviors from a reptilian or scientific point of view, than to imagine that they love me back.

I think my snakes 1. Recognize my scent, 2. Have come to believe over time that I am not harmful and 3. Are inquisitive and like to explore outside of their cages sometimes, including in my sleeves/shirt/hair. I think I am a known "safe zone" of interesting warmth. I do think they "trust" me over other people - because I am the familiar scent (Pheromone signature? What would you call it? Help me out guys).

Example: My Hispaniola boa is a musker - the species is known for not biting, but will musk every time when feeling threatened. To avoid this, I open his cage, let him see me, put my hand near him for a few seconds, let him scent me, then stroke him gently, then pick him up. He never musks me any more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, who handles the snakes less frequently, goes through the exact same set of steps and gets hit every single time. It's kind of funny.

So when that happens, what follows is: boyfriend curses loudly, grabs wad of paper towels, wraps snake in towels, shoves snake to me, runs to bathroom to wash off. I try to calm the snake down by keeping still and making a sort-of-cave with my hands and forearms until he feels like poking his head out and exploring again. Keep in mind this boa is only 9 months old, so still pretty small.

I'm not a scientist, but I think what the snake has internalized is:
Picked up by me= interesting warm jungle gym
Picked up by boyfriend= terrifyingly thrown around

Also, when my boyfriend is holding this snake, even calmly, if I put my hand nearby, the snake will attempt to crawl to me instead. My boyfriend has actually joked "He loves you more than me (pout)" and I've always said no, he's just decided I'm safer for whatever reason. (Can't imagine)

Also, just my $.02, if you have a snake that struggles wildly to not be put back into its enclosure, you may want to check the temps/humidity in there. I have a snake that would do that (aww, right? She loves me!), and when I finally checked, the probe wasn't working and the new one shot up to almost 100 degrees the second I put it in there. (PSA: Get thermostats, people. You need a thermostat) Once I fixed it, she doesn't do that anymore. Not saying that's true in every case, or that you are being negligent of your snakes at all, Sophie, but I think part of the reason people on this forum get so frustrated when this topic comes up is that this is a public space, and who knows what impressionable kid is reading this right now. People on here can be really committed to making sure the facts are straight, and it can sometimes really be worth wondering why snakes are actually doing the things they are - from a non-human point of view.

[sophiedufort]

Originally Posted by SoPhilly

Look, I get where you're coming from, Sophie - I have Boas (Epicrates/Chilobothrus), which are generally among the more handleable of snakes, which is part of why I like them. Part of what is interesting for me is to be able to have contact with such a beautiful and fascinating creature. I only handle about once a week when I clean cage "furniture", but I handle for a while.

I don't, however think they feel love and affection for me. I feel it for them, most definitely. When they do adorable things like flick at my face and get my eyelashes (adorable and tickly!) I feel the same way that I feel when my dog does something cute. There's no difference in my feeling. However, I don't need the snakes to love me in order to love the snakes, and I think it's both more interesting, and actually more caring, to think about their behaviors from a reptilian or scientific point of view, than to imagine that they love me back.

I think my snakes 1. Recognize my scent, 2. Have come to believe over time that I am not harmful and 3. Are inquisitive and like to explore outside of their cages sometimes, including in my sleeves/shirt/hair. I think I am a known "safe zone" of interesting warmth. I do think they "trust" me over other people - because I am the familiar scent (Pheromone signature? What would you call it? Help me out guys).

Example: My Hispaniola boa is a musker - the species is known for not biting, but will musk every time when feeling threatened. To avoid this, I open his cage, let him see me, put my hand near him for a few seconds, let him scent me, then stroke him gently, then pick him up. He never musks me any more. My boyfriend, on the other hand, who handles the snakes less frequently, goes through the exact same set of steps and gets hit every single time. It's kind of funny.

So when that happens, what follows is: boyfriend curses loudly, grabs wad of paper towels, wraps snake in towels, shoves snake to me, runs to bathroom to wash off. I try to calm the snake down by keeping still and making a sort-of-cave with my hands and forearms until he feels like poking his head out and exploring again. Keep in mind this boa is only 9 months old, so still pretty small.

I'm not a scientist, but I think what the snake has internalized is:
Picked up by me= interesting warm jungle gym
Picked up by boyfriend= terrifyingly thrown around

Also, when my boyfriend is holding this snake, even calmly, if I put my hand nearby, the snake will attempt to crawl to me instead. My boyfriend has actually joked "He loves you more than me (pout)" and I've always said no, he's just decided I'm safer for whatever reason. (Can't imagine)

Also, just my $.02, if you have a snake that struggles wildly to not be put back into its enclosure, you may want to check the temps/humidity in there. I have a snake that would do that (aww, right? She loves me!), and when I finally checked, the probe wasn't working and the new one shot up to almost 100 degrees the second I put it in there. (PSA: Get thermostats, people. You need a thermostat) Once I fixed it, she doesn't do that anymore. Not saying that's true in every case, or that you are being negligent of your snakes at all, Sophie, but I think part of the reason people on this forum get so frustrated when this topic comes up is that this is a public space, and who knows what impressionable kid is reading this right now. People on here can be really committed to making sure the facts are straight, and it can sometimes really be worth wondering why snakes are actually doing the things they are - from a non-human point of view.

I understand your position, and really appreciate your comments.
Now you caught my curiosity. I've never seen a Hispaniola boa. I will look it up.
Just to clarify a couple of things: As I said before, I handle my snakes every day. Probably that's why they got so used to me, and clearly don't fear me at all. Handling them so much also gave me the opportunity to notice a lot more things. They have unique personalities. Some will prefer to cuddle, others love to rest around my neck, or my husband's. One of them is starting a coordinated series of muscle contractions that feels very much like a massage on my neck. Weirdly enough, she only does it when I have a migraine. Coincidence? I don't know. All I know is that she never did it when I was feeling well. Some people will laugh at my observation, but I am merely stating a fact, something that actually happens to me. Other signs of closeness that my snakes display: pressing their head against my face, along my nose. I kiss them on the side of their head, and when I stop they come back for more, poking at my lips then resting their head over my mouth inviting me to continue.
Also, thank you for your comment about the enclosure temperature (anxiety separation paragraph). I do check the enclosure conditions often enough. I make sure that everything is functional and working well.

[Nuxodom]

Originally Posted by sophiedufort

I understand your position, and really appreciate your comments.
Now you caught my curiosity. I've never seen a Hispaniola boa. I will look it up.
Just to clarify a couple of things: As I said before, I handle my snakes every day. Probably that's why they got so used to me, and clearly don't fear me at all. Handling them so much also gave me the opportunity to notice a lot more things. They have unique personalities. Some will prefer to cuddle, others love to rest around my neck, or my husband's. One of them is starting a coordinated series of muscle contractions that feels very much like a massage on my neck. Weirdly enough, she only does it when I have a migraine. Coincidence? I don't know. All I know is that she never did it when I was feeling well. Some people will laugh at my observation, but I am merely stating a fact, something that actually happens to me. Other signs of closeness that my snakes display: pressing their head against my face, along my nose. I kiss them on the side of their head, and when I stop they come back for more, poking at my lips then resting their head over my mouth inviting me to continue.
Also, thank you for your comment about the enclosure temperature (anxiety separation paragraph). I do check the enclosure conditions often enough. I make sure that everything is functional and working well.

When my big girl wants attention, while she is wrapped around my neck, will sometimes reach up, put the back of her head on my nose, and wait for a chin rub. After about a 5-minute rub, she'll turn around, place her chin on my nose, and fall asleep.

She's funny when she is asleep - different than the rest of my snakes. If I touch her, she'll push me away like "I'm sleeping! Leave me alone!"