Bubbly mouth - Page 2

**Aaron_S** · 04-07-15, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millertime89

Yes. If you're seeing bubbling at the mouth it probably won't be effective. It only works for RIs caught really early. Once you see the bubbles it's probably too late for that. I've tried it before when I saw bubbles on my old dwarf burm's mouth/nose and it helped for a little bit but it didn't actually get rid of the RI, just reduced the symptoms.

The other problem is figuring out if the RI is viral or bacterial. If it's viral it would only suppress the symptoms as you mentioned.

**millertime89** · 04-07-15, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

The other problem is figuring out if the RI is viral or bacterial. If it's viral it would only suppress the symptoms as you mentioned.

Excellent point, the solution that you mix in the water is F10 which is an antibacterial chemical. Furthermore in my discussion with vets, every one that I've spoken with feels that it would also be an irritant and could potentially make the situation worse.

Chris72 · 04-07-15, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millertime89

Excellent point, the solution that you mix in the water is F10 which is an antibacterial chemical. Furthermore in my discussion with vets, every one that I've spoken with feels that it would also be an irritant and could potentially make the situation worse.

Have never understood why anyone would throw away valuable treatment time, and possibly the life of the animal, messing around with half baked ideas that are known to be harmful. (Why...to save a vet visit?)

MDT · 04-07-15, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris72

Have never understood why anyone would throw away valuable treatment time, and possibly the life of the animal, messing around with half baked ideas that are known to be harmful. (Why...to save a vet visit?)

Trust me....people will do anything to "save" a visit to vet/doctor/whatever.
With the advent of Google, everyone is a freaking internet physician. I hear the same thing from a vet friend of mine.

It seems that half of my encounters with patients are trying to undo what they have diagnosed themselves with on WebMD or Google or even worse, Dr. Oz.....

Jrich · 04-07-15, 08:16 PM

Update: Took her to the vet and of course she was diagnosed with an upper respiratory infection. They looked in her mouth...the kicker? Clean and healthy pink color. I noticed bubbles coming from the sides of the mouth too. She yawns A LOT. I'll include a picture of what I noticed about her jaw as well, but it's not always wonky looking. I still hear popping noises sometimes especially when she's stress breathing while being handled. She is also in blue. She was given a shot of baytril/enroflox. I go back on Friday so I will definitely inquire about a swab and having a gram +\- stain done, that seems to make the most sense before administering antibiotics. Now that I see all this input about antibiotics, not so sure about the type of treatment she was given today. We will see. I cleaned out her enclosure and put in new hides and a water dish as well as another heat source to bump up the heat. Does anyone have any other suggestions about what can be done about RI's besides antibiotics, as I see that it's not the best course of action after all? Thanks for the input everyone. I really appreciate it. On the other hand she has steadily gained weight since I've been keeping her.

MDT · 04-07-15, 08:48 PM

Jrich....the antibiotics *may* be the right course...if the RI is from a bacterial source. But you won't know that for sure without a culture/gram stain. If it is viral, all of the Baytril on the planet won't fix it. That's not to say that often times "empirical treatment" isn't done...meaning "hey, your throat hurts, it's red, it might be strep, let's just treat it w Amoxil and see if you get better"....that happens all the time (it's just not good medicine, IMO).

In this case, your pythons bubbling secretions could very well be a bacterial process...your vet may have seen this a 1000 times and is very confident in rendering this treatment...however, if you don't see a clinical response in 48-72 hours, is it because the wrong antibiotic was chosen for the bacteria in question, or....perhaps, there was no bacteria at all and it was a virus that no matter what you do, you just have to give supportive care and let it run its course....?

shaunyboy · 04-08-15, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by millertime89

Excellent point, the solution that you mix in the water is F10 which is an antibacterial chemical. Furthermore in my discussion with vets, every one that I've spoken with feels that it would also be an irritant and could potentially make the situation worse.

i had a Jag that kept getting RI symptoms...

we did a tracheal wash and found no viral or bacterial infection

we did key hole surgery and the lung was in perfect shape and a colour..

we took swabs from the lung during surgery,that showed nothing after being cultured

but there were small blobs of water in appearing in the lung..

i had great vet at the time Romain Pizza,who is now the vet at Edinburgh Zoo,he travels the world collecting creatures for the zoo now,and was a reptile keeper himself...

regarding the small drops of water appearing,he said what was going on with the jags lung,was similar to a human with something like Cystic Fibrosis...

F10 in a nebuliser dilluted at 250:1,twice a day for 15 minutes,kept the condition at bay for the most part..

the snake only lived another 4 or 5 years,but symptom free 90% of that time

to the op
please don't worry,as it was not a respiratory infection that killed my Jag,it was an on going lung problem

get your vet to identify the type of infection and what treatment is best for said infection..

F10 in a nebuliser only helps with certain types of infection mate

cheers shaun

MDT · 04-08-15, 07:17 AM

Shaun...wow...very interesting case (really sucks though being one of your snakes)....this is a perfect example of "not everything needs an antibiotic"....man, thanks for posting this.

It also underscores the need for thorough investigation and not just shrugging things off as "same old stuff". That's where a good clinician comes in handy

Jrich · 04-13-15, 08:23 PM

Took her to the vet a few days ago for another shot of antibiotics. She still bubbles a small amount. However she finally shed and is much more active and even ate a meal last night. Things are looking up but I shouldn't speak too soon.

Albert Clark · 04-14-15, 03:59 PM

Wow, sorry to hear and see your snake in this condition! First, you are right to place him on paper towels now and when you get back from the vet with your diagnosis and treatments. That is too much reptibark in that small enclosure you only need a handful in there and spread it around on top of the paper towels. I would add some holes in the sides of that tub. To increase the temps on the cool side I would get a che (ceramic heat emitter) and place it a few inches over the cool side in a clamp lamp. 75 watt che should be sufficient. Good work and he should heal up soon.

MDT · 04-14-15, 05:45 PM

hey albert, i think you've got some great points, but (and not trying to nit pick), but your reason for the edit....that high humidity *causes* RI, is not accurate. while is certainly favors growth of certain pathogens, by itself humidity is not pathogenic. if a respiratory bacteria or respiratory virus may be present, and environmental factors are favorable for that particular organism (high humidity, high temps, whatever) then growth is promoted. i think that may be what you meant...?

Albert Clark · 04-14-15, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

hey albert, i think you've got some great points, but (and not trying to nit pick), but your reason for the edit....that high humidity *causes* RI, is not accurate. while is certainly favors growth of certain pathogens, by itself humidity is not pathogenic. if a respiratory bacteria or respiratory virus may be present, and environmental factors are favorable for that particular organism (high humidity, high temps, whatever) then growth is promoted. i think that may be what you meant...?

Trust me on this one: High humidity for prolonged periods in enclosed spaces like that small tub is a contributing cause for ri in ball pythons. Maybe if he had more ventilation especially cross ventilation, it would have helped to decrease the irritation to the respiratory tract. However the end result would be the same.

MDT · 04-14-15, 06:27 PM

Contributing...yes. I would agree with that....That's perfectly logical and speaks to my point. But to say the humidity causes the RI is like your mom saying "don't go outside in the rain without your coat or you'll catch a cold"...the theory of spontaneous generation has long since been set aside.

Now, if you're talking about an inflammatory process that's not infectious, you could be very correct. Lots of environmental crap can cause inflammation. The problem arises when one tries to treat environmental issues with antibiotics....Shaun's post above is a great example of this. His vet is a stud to go to these lengths.

Albert Clark · 04-16-15, 06:50 AM

Ok. I see your points. We can agree to disagree. I think adequate ventilation is needed in the op enclosure especially cross ventilation to help prevent reinfection. Also he should double check and improve his temp delivery to both the cool side and the warm side.

**Aaron_S** · 04-16-15, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Ok. I see your points. We can agree to disagree....

This is science. There is no other way. You can say or believe what you want but it doesn't mean you're right.

It's akin to calling the sky green when in fact it's blue.

Anyway, I think Matt was trying to say that humidity isn't a cause of RIs. They don't help if bacteria or a virus is present but they won't be the sole cause of an RI.

In that case all of mine will have an RI every shed cycle as I jump up the humidity to 100%.