The UVB Varanid debate !

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Roman

Insectivore lizards on the other hand need an outside source for vitamin D3, because insects don’t contain enough D3 to provide an adequate source. So in order to provide enough vitamin D3 you have to either supplement the feeder insects with some multivitamin powder or provide a source of UV-B light so that the monitor can build enough D3.
I found some statement in my literature that it might be enough to just add the supplementation without UV-B, but they also stated that it might be tricky to get the right amount without under-supplying the monitor or to poison it with an overdose. So the general recommendation is to use UV-B lighting as one light-, heat- and UV-B-source.

There is no obvious need to provide UV-B light for most snakes (with the exception of the Diamond pythons Shaun mentioned.
Roman

Hi, there are no Varanid species that are strictly insectivorous as far as I know (either in the wild or captivity), so I`m not sure which species you feel actually need supplementary UVB to remain healthy in captivity?
There is now overwhelming evidence that fully supported captive Varanids do NOT need exposure to real or artificial UVB in order to remain in good health, long lived and productive.
My own thoughts are that Varanids in the wild may benefit from UVB exposure more especially during the harsher periods when food may perhaps be in relatively short supply (so the ability to absorb the UVB rays is a sort of "back up" system).

I`m not sure that Diamond and Carpet snakes actually require UVB to remain healthy either (though there`s absolutely no harm in providing it), as they certainly do bask in unfiltered natural sunlight in the wild (personal experience).
In that respect, I don`t quite understand why the other member (Shaun) only uses a 2-0 UVB tube for this subspecies (I`m not suggesting a 2-0 is harmful at all).

[Roman]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, there are no Varanid species that are strictly insectivorous as far as I know (either in the wild or captivity), so I`m not sure which species you feel actually need supplementary UVB to remain healthy in captivity?
There is now overwhelming evidence that fully supported captive Varanids do NOT need exposure to real or artificial UVB in order to remain in good health, long lived and productive.

I agree, most small or medium sized varanids feed on insects and smaller vertebrates like other lizards or snakes. But most of us can’t provide those on a regular basis, so that leaves us with an insectivore diet with some baby mice as occasional treats.

All sources I could find will tell you that insects provide no or nearly no vitamin D3, so you have to provide it from an external source, especially as baby mice are the equivalent of a big burger for a small monitor, something you may eat, but not on a regular basis.

Could you please provide your source that there is no need for an external exposure of UV-B?

How do you feed your monitors, which food-mix do you provide?

Roman

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by Roman

I agree, most small or medium sized varanids feed on insects and smaller vertebrates like other lizards or snakes. But most of us can’t provide those on a regular basis, so that leaves us with an insectivore diet with some baby mice as occasional treats.

All sources I could find will tell you that insects provide no or nearly no vitamin D3, so you have to provide it from an external source, especially as baby mice are the equivalent of a big burger for a small monitor, something you may eat, but not on a regular basis.

Could you please provide your source that there is no need for an external exposure of UV-B?

How do you feed your monitors, which food-mix do you provide?

Roman

Hi again, my sources are many, there are some very experienced keepers and breeders of Varanids in Germany, one of those being Prof. Dr. Hans-Georg Horn, are you familiar with his work?
In America there`s Frank Retes (one of the worlds most successful keepers and breeders), also Justin Burokas and Ben Aller....
May I ask which books you have that suggest UVB is necessary for captive Varanids?
All my monitors have ALWAYS received a whole prey diet from hatchlings to adlulthood which included vertebrate and invert prey.
Edit: I cannot believe that vertebrates are not readily available in Germany (you say "most of us cannot provide them on a regular basis"), and the suggestion that baby mice "are like feeding a burger" (junk food) is complete nonsense, they are a healthy and very nutritious meal.
Please do not take anything I say as being disrespectful to you!

[mdfmonitor]

Nice one Wayne!! (pic)

I would like to know that this study of uv lights etc who's monitors was it carried out on, zoos usually take blood tests regularly & i'm not sure that the ones that rely on human generated lighting are as fit as some of the wild monitors or captive monitors been offered 160f basking sites & good background temps.

I'm sure this would make a difference on the result, there's no way i could take blood tests off my Lenny without stressing the hell out of him & upsetting his routines etc.

I can only offer short time results, but taking a 16" argus monitor to over 4 foot in 8 months with no uv exposure most tell you something, i do use vitd & pure calcium on & off depending on growth rate. Many good experience reliable keepers have told me provide a good basking site & you won't have a problem!!

Now for food, food is mass produced nowadays & power fed to make them efficient for business purposes, with this in mind i wouldn't dare stop feeding added vitamins to my argus. I do use natural food, but even trout is forced grown to make them cheaper to produce.

I just don't think they are as good quality food as animals/fish grown at a natural speed.

but again if you can fit uv in & want it crack on with it!!

[StudentoReptile]

[Sorry for posting a little late in the thread...was in the hospital for 2 days].

Regarding artificial UV lighting...someone mentioned certain bulbs were harmful to certain reptiles. I'll describe what I know below:

Compact Florrescent bulbs (both "spiral-shaped" and "U-shaped") or CFBs - These bulbs are commonly offered by Exo Terra, ZooMed and Zilla. They also come in 3 main intensity ranges: 2.0, 5.0 and 10.0.

There have been alleged (meaning I have yet to see the actual text myself - only heard about them secondhand) studies that show these bulbs have caused blindness in bearded dragons. I do not know which agency did the study, which brand bulb, which intensity (2.0, or 5.0?), or if they included other reptile species. So one could take what I just described with a grain of salt.

However, I can attest that other tortoise keepers as well as myself have personally witnessed temporary blindness on our tortoises, using both 5.0 and 10.0 bulbs of various brands, and regardless of how the bulb was mounted. [NOTE: studies have shown that CFBs are to be mounted horizontally in a specifically-designed fixture for maximum and most efficient UV emission and not to be mounted in a traditional dome fixture.

Standard Tube Florescent bulbs (tube bulbs) - also in various brands, and come in 2.0, 5.0 and 10.0. Oldies but goodies. Very few issues reported with these bulbs, the most common one being a short lifespan; about 6 months. The advantage is that they can over a wide area over the enclosure.

T-5 "thin" Tube Florescent Bulbs - same as the standard tubes, but thinner, and a little more efficient and a little more intense. I had personally witnessed my own tortoises going blind with 5.0 and 10.0 with one of these, so I would use caution. They reportedly have a longer lifespan than standard tubes as well.

Mercury Vapor Bulbs - The two-in-one heat and UV bulb! This is a two-edged sword, as you have to find the right spot to mount to achieve the right temperature for basking and still let the animal get adequate UV, because it still only produces a focused "beam" of heat and UV, and is not widespread all over the enclosure. These traditionally only come in high wattages, 125 and 160 watts, so use a temp gun when using one. I suggest only for small desert lizards like, ackies, beardies, Uros, plated lizards and juvenile monitors. I would not recommend for larger animals or tortoises.
------
Here is the site where I got most of the above info from: UV Guide UK - Ultraviolet Light for Reptiles - UVB reptile lighting on test

I can try and dig up a cool thread from a tortoise site that had some cool pics from thermal images on basking tortoises using different lighting situations, later.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Mercury Vapor Bulbs - The two-in-one heat and UV bulb! This is a two-edged sword, as you have to find the right spot to mount to achieve the right temperature for basking and still let the animal get adequate UV, because it still only produces a focused "beam" of heat and UV, and is not widespread all over the enclosure. These traditionally only come in high wattages, 125 and 160 watts, so use a temp gun when using one. I suggest only for small desert lizards like, ackies, beardies, Uros, plated lizards and juvenile monitors. I would not recommend for larger animals or tortoises.
------
I can try and dig up a cool thread from a tortoise site that had some cool pics from thermal images on basking tortoises using different lighting situations, later.

Hi, the quality of the MVB`s varies considerably, some don`t come close the manufacturers claims as far as UVB is concerned (Arcadia and Mega Ray are very good).
For your info, and anyone else who may be interested; MVB`s such as "Powersun", have a beam radius of around 75cm (30 inches), so CAN be used with larger animals as it is NOT a focused (tight) beam as in a spot" bulb. The most important point is to make sure they are the minimum distance away, and in a large enough enclosure. The fact that the UVB doesn`t cover the whole enclosure is not a problem at all, they get the benefits of the UVB irradiation while basking:
The only bulbs that come close to natural unfiltered sunlight are the metal halides....

[V87]

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

Nice one Wayne!! (pic)

I would like to know that this study of uv lights etc who's monitors was it carried out on, zoos usually take blood tests regularly & i'm not sure that the ones that rely on human generated lighting are as fit as some of the wild monitors or captive monitors been offered 160f basking sites & good background temps.

I'm sure this would make a difference on the result, there's no way i could take blood tests off my Lenny without stressing the hell out of him & upsetting his routines etc.

I can only offer short time results, but taking a 16" argus monitor to over 4 foot in 8 months with no uv exposure most tell you something, i do use vitd & pure calcium on & off depending on growth rate. Many good experience reliable keepers have told me provide a good basking site & you won't have a problem!!

Now for food, food is mass produced nowadays & power fed to make them efficient for business purposes, with this in mind i wouldn't dare stop feeding added vitamins to my argus. I do use natural food, but even trout is forced grown to make them cheaper to produce.

I just don't think they are as good quality food as animals/fish grown at a natural speed.

but again if you can fit uv in & want it crack on with it!!

I knw one zoo doing blood tests for there monitors in co ordination with the t5 super zoo to see wether it makes a difference or not ...

They are also doing uv field studies out in komodo ...

[jarich]

Originally Posted by V87

I knw one zoo doing blood tests for there monitors in co ordination with the t5 super zoo to see wether it makes a difference or not ...

They are also doing uv field studies out in komodo ...

Very much looking forward to these results, though I don't think they will be any surprise.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by jarich

Very much looking forward to these results, though I don't think they will be any surprise.

Considering what Bryan said, and knowing that he keeps Varanids and has his own lab at his disposal, I can't help but trust his immunity/white cell count observation.

Also, metal halide lamps have 5 times the lumen output for the same wattage.... so adding only 1 bulb would be like adding 5 more lights, replacing 2 lamps would give as much light as having 10 basking lamps!!

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by V87

I knw one zoo doing blood tests for there monitors in co ordination with the t5 super zoo to see wether it makes a difference or not ...

They are also doing uv field studies out in komodo ...

The London Zoo, I assume? I'll be interested to see that, though I would agree with Jarich that I don't think they will be surprising results.