"Best trained Savannah monitor"

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

So are you against WC in the hobby, if the option of CB is not available? Like most of the indo species in America.

If anything, I'm even more against WC in the hobby in places where the animals don't occur natively, such as America.

Here if WC were allowed it would just be the odd animal taken and it would only affect the individual animals (the extent of the effect would depend on the species), but when you have an import industry you are adding several other factors: It starts with people whose motivation to capture animals will be high enough that there may be some habitat destruction involved (breaking open rock crevices or hollow logs, cutting down small trees to get the animals down) and who aren't overly worried about overcollection, as their livelihood may be at stake. Then there's the death toll from transportation in substandard conditions, followed by languishing in a reptile importer's warehouse. The survivors end up in a pet store, where the staff don't know how to look after them and then, finally, most end up being bought by new keepers with no experience that buy them because they're inexpensive compared to other, CB, species. A huge percentage of them are dead before long.

Big death toll, no recruitment. I've been on these monitor forums for over 12 years and every year there's a dozen new keepers who post about how they are going to 'break the mould' and be the pioneers of producing CB Indo monitors of the indicus complex, particularly doreanus and melinus. Eventually they disappear from the forums without achieving that goal. The imports keep coming in. There's a reason CB aren't available: No one succeeds in breeding them and if they do, it's a one or two clutch run max.

I guess this was a long winded way of me saying 'yes, I'm against WC in the hobby'.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

If anything, I'm even more against WC in the hobby in places where the animals don't occur natively, such as America.

Here if WC were allowed it would just be the odd animal taken and it would only affect the individual animals (the extent of the effect would depend on the species), but when you have an import industry you are adding several other factors: It starts with people whose motivation to capture animals will be high enough that there may be some habitat destruction involved (breaking open rock crevices or hollow logs, cutting down small trees to get the animals down) and who aren't overly worried about overcollection, as their livelihood may be at stake. Then there's the death toll from transportation in substandard conditions, followed by languishing in a reptile importer's warehouse. The survivors end up in a pet store, where the staff don't know how to look after them and then, finally, most end up being bought by new keepers with no experience that buy them because they're inexpensive compared to other, CB, species. A huge percentage of them are dead before long.

Big death toll, no recruitment. I've been on these monitor forums for over 12 years and every year there's a dozen new keepers who post about how they are going to 'break the mould' and be the pioneers of producing CB Indo monitors of the indicus complex, particularly doreanus and melinus. Eventually they disappear from the forums without achieving that goal. The imports keep coming in. There's a reason CB aren't available: No one succeeds in breeding them and if they do, it's a one or two clutch run max.

I guess this was a long winded way of me saying 'yes, I'm against WC in the hobby'.

Yea I agree, But I think I will be different. I'm going to do everything to provide proper husbandry, money is not an issue. So I'm guessing they will breed in no time. I am going to break the mould and be the pioneer for sure...Oh. and I'm going to get rich as well because breeding reptiles is a sure fire way to get rich.

But in all seriousness, for me its only more complicated because I live in an area where there is almost nothing besides a some snake species (no lizards except the 5 lined skink which I've never seen in 23 years). Plus captive bred has its roots in wild caught, so without wild caught we could never have captive bred. I suppose I would support wild caught if there was a permit required, and the permit required that you have a certain amount of income, neccessary knowledge in order to keep specific species. That would weed out the careless inexperienced keepers,and allow others to admire the species we would otherwise never be able to see.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Plus captive bred has its roots in wild caught, so without wild caught we could never have captive bred.

I've seen this lame argument used to support the WC industry before, but never from a reasonably educated person. I am, to be perfectly honest, shocked and surprised. Are you seriously unable to determine the difference between these two scenarios?

1. Remove half a dozen individuals from the wild, breed them and then continue to supply the hobby through generation after generation of hundreds (if not thousands) of CB offspring, without the need to remove more animals out of the wild.

2. Continue to remove thousands of animals out of the wild, year after year after year, with a large number dying in transport and few surviving after they reach the end user.

The other factor I haven't mentioned is that CB animals fare better in captivity, so there's a higher survival rate than with WC.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I've seen this lame argument used to support the WC industry before, but never from a reasonably educated person. I am, to be perfectly honest, shocked and surprised. Are you seriously unable to determine the difference between these two scenarios?

1. Remove half a dozen individuals from the wild, breed them and then continue to supply the hobby through generation after generation of hundreds (if not thousands) of CB offspring, without the need to remove more animals out of the wild.

2. Continue to remove thousands of animals out of the wild, year after year after year, with a large number dying in transport and few surviving after they reach the end user.

The other factor I haven't mentioned is that CB animals fare better in captivity, so there's a higher survival rate than with WC.

Well I was actually implying number 1, not a full blown import/export industry to the pet trade , just that the CB has to start somewhere and not removing any wild animals wouldn't allow for it. (I tried to hint at that with the permit thing). I guess it also has application in zoo's for educational purposes, or for introducing variety into the gene pool, surely half a dozen would possibly show genetic defects after that much inbreeding. Again, I was didn't intend to use that as a reason to support a full blown WC trade, just the literal meaning of taking a wild caught animal into captivity.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Well I was actually implying number 1, not a full blown import/export industry to the pet trade , just that the CB has to start somewhere

You may have missed this bit from my earlier post:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I've been on these monitor forums for over 12 years and every year there's a dozen new keepers who post about how they are going to 'break the mould' and be the pioneers of producing CB Indo monitors of the indicus complex, particularly doreanus and melinus. Eventually they disappear from the forums without achieving that goal. The imports keep coming in. There's a reason CB aren't available: No one succeeds in breeding them and if they do, it's a one or two clutch run max.

They ALL say that they want to buy WC so they can start producing CB. They ALL fail.

At some point, someone has to say 'enough is enough'.

[crocdoc]

There's another factor here: As long as WC are available, there's less incentive to breed them in captivity. It's not a coincidence that so many Australian reptiles are available CB - Australia closed the doors to exports many years ago, so there's been strong incentive to breed the few that have been smuggled out.

If Indonesia banned exports, there'd be a lot of pressure on the remaining WC Indonesian monitors already in captivity in the US to be bred. If they failed, then people should accept that failure and those animals would no longer be available in the hobby. There is no universal law stating that every species has to be available to the hobby. Continued importation of WC animals that no one is able to breed is not the answer - I think we're beyond the disposable pet stage in our way of thinking. Or should be, anyway.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

There's another factor here: As long as WC are available, there's less incentive to breed them in captivity. It's not a coincidence that so many Australian reptiles are available CB - Australia closed the doors to exports many years ago, so there's been strong incentive to breed the few that have been smuggled out.

If Indonesia banned exports, there'd be a lot of pressure on the remaining WC Indonesian monitors already in captivity in the US to be bred. If they failed, then people should accept that failure and those animals would no longer be available in the hobby. There is no universal law stating that every species has to be available to the hobby. Continued importation of WC animals that no one is able to breed is not the answer - I think we're beyond the disposable pet stage in our way of thinking. Or should be, anyway.

Yea I guess. I guess I'm being subborn because some of the species I wish I could keep aren't available cb just yet :S

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Yea I guess. I guess I'm being subborn because some of the species I wish I could keep aren't available cb just yet :S

I understand where you're coming from, but the problem is that 'just yet' assumes it will happen. If it hasn't happened yet, there's no guarantee it will. Not the way things are at the moment. People need incentive and a ban on imports would be just that.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I understand where you're coming from, but the problem is that 'just yet' assumes it will happen. If it hasn't happened yet, there's no guarantee it will. Not the way things are at the moment. People need incentive and a ban on imports would be just that.

I'll admit, I'm guilty of buying imports occasionally, when I see something and can't resist the urge (I know I know) . HOWEVER, I would support a ban on imports 100%, because like you said, I think it would cause people to try really hard to provide proper conditions in order to captive breed them, instead of putting 2 of them on a paper towel on his book shelf and hoping the magic happens. 'This species lives in burrows in the wild, so this is optimal' really drives me nuts. If you can't afford it, or this is the most profitable efficient way to breed them, just say so. But in the wild they aren't trapped in that burrow forever.....

Back on topic, the other big reason is although I'd like to see all sorts of species in my home, I'd much rather have them exist in general.

[smy_749]

I'm not referring to myself, I don't even think most of the animals being bred should be bred. So many people breeding, and no place for the animals to go because everyone has money on their mind. For me its about admiring the animals, not about producing the coolest morphs or making money. I don't breed anything just for the record, nor do I plan to. I don't even own an incubator :-P and if I had produced eggs unexpectedly, unless it was something rare which I don't own anyways, I wouldn't bother incubating the eggs so the babies could be sold to 15 year olds because I can't afford to feed/keep them all.

I see your point, but was referring to WC for people like yourself, not like me.