Reptillian Theories

[MH4C]

Sorry for bumping up this 3 month old topic, but as a neuroscientist I find the topic of 'awareness/emotion' in all animals interesting, and as a snake keeper especially in snakes. The whole problem with thinking your snake is happy/sad or any other human emotion is that we project our own view of an experience on the snake. When your snake, or any other animal for that matter, is happily dozing away after eating a meal, we would call it content with it's position, because that is what we would be when placed in that exact position.
We don't know what, or even if, an animal feels the same way. Only for mammals we have an indication that something is going on at the emotional level, as extensive research has been done on brain activity during 'emotional' tasks or settings like relapse to an addicted state in rats or social interaction by rats that have been made 'depressed'. There are even what you could call 'clinical symptoms' for these conditions, which don't diverge that far from what we see in addicted or depressed humans.

To my knowledge there have not been any studies regarding emotional awareness or pathological emotional states in reptiles, however, my knowledge on this is still limited (thanks falconeer999 for the website...will be spending quite some time there ). What I do know is that many reptiles can learn and that snakes, widely regarded as the simplest of reptiles, can be trained to recognize spatial cues and efficiently navigate 3D space. This research group trained cornsnakes on in a round chamber with 8 evenly spaced holes in the floor around the rim. 7 of these holes were cover from underneath so the snake could not climb in, but the cover was only visible when the snake reached the hole, and a white card was placed on one side of the chamber. similar setups have also been widely used with spatial recognition training in mice and rats this is generally called the 'Barnes maze'. After training (placing the snake in the maze in the same orientation each time, leaving the same hole as an escape hole) the snakes became more efficient and goal-directed towards the escape hole, showing they can recognize environmental ques to efficiently navigate a familiar environment.

Although this doesn't answer anything about the question 'do reptiles have emotions or feelings' it shows that they have a complex brain which can learn and integrate somatosensory and behavioural patterns. Who knows what else we can learn about reptiles and cognition. I'll keep digging, this is pretty interesting stuff and I didn't know there was this much research about it out there, and let you guys know if I find something worthwhile to maybe answer this ever ongoing discussion .

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by MH4C

Sorry for bumping up this 3 month old topic, but as a neuroscientist I find the topic of 'awareness/emotion' in all animals interesting, and as a snake keeper especially in snakes. The whole problem with thinking your snake is happy/sad or any other human emotion is that we project our own view of an experience on the snake. When your snake, or any other animal for that matter, is happily dozing away after eating a meal, we would call it content with it's position, because that is what we would be when placed in that exact position.
We don't know what, or even if, an animal feels the same way. Only for mammals we have an indication that something is going on at the emotional level, as extensive research has been done on brain activity during 'emotional' tasks or settings like relapse to an addicted state in rats or social interaction by rats that have been made 'depressed'. There are even what you could call 'clinical symptoms' for these conditions, which don't diverge that far from what we see in addicted or depressed humans.

To my knowledge there have not been any studies regarding emotional awareness or pathological emotional states in reptiles, however, my knowledge on this is still limited (thanks falconeer999 for the website...will be spending quite some time there ). What I do know is that many reptiles can learn and that snakes, widely regarded as the simplest of reptiles, can be trained to recognize spatial cues and efficiently navigate 3D space. This research group trained cornsnakes on in a round chamber with 8 evenly spaced holes in the floor around the rim. 7 of these holes were cover from underneath so the snake could not climb in, but the cover was only visible when the snake reached the hole, and a white card was placed on one side of the chamber. similar setups have also been widely used with spatial recognition training in mice and rats this is generally called the 'Barnes maze'. After training (placing the snake in the maze in the same orientation each time, leaving the same hole as an escape hole) the snakes became more efficient and goal-directed towards the escape hole, showing they can recognize environmental ques to efficiently navigate a familiar environment.

Although this doesn't answer anything about the question 'do reptiles have emotions or feelings' it shows that they have a complex brain which can learn and integrate somatosensory and behavioural patterns. Who knows what else we can learn about reptiles and cognition. I'll keep digging, this is pretty interesting stuff and I didn't know there was this much research about it out there, and let you guys know if I find something worthwhile to maybe answer this ever ongoing discussion .

You make some good solid points.

I got some resources some months ago for this thread that I haven't quite sifted through yet. I'll post them when I do.


Without that experiment on corn snakes we all knew they have behaviour patterns. Some snakes learn that when their door or tub is opened that food comes from that opening. I would suggest that this is a pattern with them being familiar with it.

I do have a further question about the experiment you mentioned. Did they sterilize or make an attempt to remove the smell of each snake after trial? It could be presumed that the snakes followed the scent of another one through possibly for mating purposes even. If you have the report I'd be interested in reading it.

[bcr226]

Do snakes have emotions? I believe they do. They may not be able to convey their emotions with us in a manner we understand but let's look at a few points.

1. It has been proven that snakes have memory. Tests show that snakes can recognize duplicate structure on sight without input from smell.

2. Snakes are curious animals. They will investigate new things and explore things unknown to them. I see this if I change up or add something to any of our enclosures.

3. Snakes process information. It may be basic information but they do it and they learn from it. Case in point, teaching a snake to recognize rats as food over mice.

Some of our snakes react differently to different people in a consistent manner. One of our ball pythons will curl up under my shirt and stay there for hours while this same one will constantly cruise around on my wife trying to get into trouble. This shows at least to a minor degree a level of recognition of different people.

So, the basis of developing emotions is certainly there. Are they there? I only have my own observations which can be interpreted in various ways.

Our BCI breeding pair definitely have a bond of some degree. The male does not like the female being out of his sight. He will actively look for her until he can see her again. He'll become tense and agitated, not aggressive in any way but there is definitely a change in posture and stress. When he sees her, he relaxes.

But, that's observation. How does one test for emotion outside of observation?

No matter what, we're dealing with base level intelligence and mental activity. We know that most if not all animals have at least one emotion which is fear. How do we identify other emotions?

I'm game to experiment on this with the caveat that I will not harm or intentionally cause fear in any of the test subjects. But again, how do you test for it?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bcr226

Do snakes have emotions? I believe they do. They may not be able to convey their emotions with us in a manner we understand but let's look at a few points.

1. It has been proven that snakes have memory. Tests show that snakes can recognize duplicate structure on sight without input from smell.

2. Snakes are curious animals. They will investigate new things and explore things unknown to them. I see this if I change up or add something to any of our enclosures.

3. Snakes process information. It may be basic information but they do it and they learn from it. Case in point, teaching a snake to recognize rats as food over mice.

Some of our snakes react differently to different people in a consistent manner. One of our ball pythons will curl up under my shirt and stay there for hours while this same one will constantly cruise around on my wife trying to get into trouble. This shows at least to a minor degree a level of recognition of different people.

So, the basis of developing emotions is certainly there. Are they there? I only have my own observations which can be interpreted in various ways.

Our BCI breeding pair definitely have a bond of some degree. The male does not like the female being out of his sight. He will actively look for her until he can see her again. He'll become tense and agitated, not aggressive in any way but there is definitely a change in posture and stress. When he sees her, he relaxes.

But, that's observation. How does one test for emotion outside of observation?

No matter what, we're dealing with base level intelligence and mental activity. We know that most if not all animals have at least one emotion which is fear. How do we identify other emotions?

I'm game to experiment on this with the caveat that I will not harm or intentionally cause fear in any of the test subjects. But again, how do you test for it?

1. Where's the report?

2. Great. Your animals are leading causes and is a definite source for all animals in captivity.

3. Actually, we don't do that. They will eat both animals. It isn't one over the other. We don't teach them anything. We just get them to eat what we're offering because it's simple prey for us to use.

Snakes easily recognize things we don't. Confidence,fear or whatever may be underlining and that would cause for concern. I'd venture to say they are less comfortable because they use your shirt as a hide to hide from the world (stress in my opinion) and two, if it's cruising looking "for trouble" then it could be trying to escape.

Observe? Yes that's how you learn. You have yet to truly observe though. You presume your boas have a bond due to a 5 or 10 minute experience of "lost" between the two snakes. Have you housed them completely the same but in different enclosures and see how they behave over a week? 4 weeks? 4 months?

You have this caveat but with it you believe separating the boas to be harmful to their psyche or fearful of separation so you're only left with what you deem as a bond.

[bcr226]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

1. Where's the report?

2. Great. Your animals are leading causes and is a definite source for all animals in captivity.

3. Actually, we don't do that. They will eat both animals. It isn't one over the other. We don't teach them anything. We just get them to eat what we're offering because it's simple prey for us to use.

Snakes easily recognize things we don't. Confidence,fear or whatever may be underlining and that would cause for concern. I'd venture to say they are less comfortable because they use your shirt as a hide to hide from the world (stress in my opinion) and two, if it's cruising looking "for trouble" then it could be trying to escape.

Observe? Yes that's how you learn. You have yet to truly observe though. You presume your boas have a bond due to a 5 or 10 minute experience of "lost" between the two snakes. Have you housed them completely the same but in different enclosures and see how they behave over a week? 4 weeks? 4 months?

You have this caveat but with it you believe separating the boas to be harmful to their psyche or fearful of separation so you're only left with what you deem as a bond.

Wow, talk about opinion. Tell ya what, when you come down off of your little holier than thou high there, and want to discuss it politely without the assumption and attitude, I'll be happy to explore this topic further.

I don't like it when people make assumptions and make up context out of what I post when they don't know better. Yes, I relayed some of my observations, I didn't go into great detail but you seem to "know" everything that happened so please, by all means, carry on.

Never seen someone troll their own thread so well before.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bcr226

Wow, talk about opinion. Tell ya what, when you come down off of your little holier than thou high there, and want to discuss it politely without the assumption and attitude, I'll be happy to explore this topic further.

I don't like it when people make assumptions and make up context out of what I post when they don't know better. Yes, I relayed some of my observations, I didn't go into great detail but you seem to "know" everything that happened so please, by all means, carry on.

Never seen someone troll their own thread so well before.

Actually it's not opinion. It's fact thus far.

When you actually have a response feel free to say it. I didn't take anything out of context. I responded to what I've read you've posted. If there's information left out that makes my response null and void then post it. It's your fault assumptions are made about you if you withhold information that's apparently important enough to change the entire context.