Spotted Sinaloans or Nelsons ?

Pete Q · 10-09-12, 11:06 AM

I would really like opinions here on how spotted sinaloans came about, I recall the first spotted snake was a Nelsoni, what are your thoughts ? and what do you know on the subject ?

Blaze Mcsmith · 10-09-12, 01:12 PM

i dont know the answer to that but im sure someone here does
i kinda like the reduced patterned sinaloans myself
mixed with corn or kolblochi ? i dont know sorry about my spelling

TremTricolors · 10-09-12, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Q

I would really like opinions here on how spotted sinaloans came about, I recall the first spotted snake was a Nelsoni, what are your thoughts ? and what do you know on the subject ?

Pete, it has been a discussion as of late between myself and a few others. If you are talking about the old line of "Bullseye" that was introduced into the amel gene I believe it came from L.t.nelsoni. The patternless gene also from my understanding came from L.t.nelsoni. Robert Sieb bred these in decent numbers. I know Applegate says his striped sinaloans are pure sinaloans and came from his line of sinaloans. I do have a pair from before he introduced the amel gene into that line and I will hopefully be able to reproduce the striped gene.

Shannon Brown bred a amelanistic L.t.nelsoni from Don Wilson to a wild caught female back in 1997. Some of the offspring were aberrant. I have an original pair from that breeding but she didn't produce any offspring this year, so I am hoping next year to be able to keep that line alive.

I know this probably doesn't give you a definite answer but as soon as I know I will forward the information to you.

TremTricolors · 10-09-12, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze Mcsmith

i dont know the answer to that but im sure someone here does
i kinda like the reduced patterned sinaloans myself
mixed with corn or kolblochi ? i dont know sorry about my spelling

Who breeds Sinaloans with Chihuahua Mtn Kings/Tarahumara Mtn Kings? I have seen corndurans and sinacorns and nelsoni x corn. I have not seen L.knoblochi x corn though???? Any pics???

Pete Q · 10-09-12, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TremTricolors

Pete, it has been a discussion as of late between myself and a few others. If you are talking about the old line of "Bullseye" that was introduced into the amel gene I believe it came from L.t.nelsoni. The patternless gene also from my understanding came from L.t.nelsoni. Robert Sieb bred these in decent numbers. I know Applegate says his striped sinaloans are pure sinaloans and came from his line of sinaloans. I do have a pair from before he introduced the amel gene into that line and I will hopefully be able to reproduce the striped gene.

Shannon Brown bred a amelanistic L.t.nelsoni from Don Wilson to a wild caught female back in 1997. Some of the offspring were aberrant. I have an original pair from that breeding but she didn't produce any offspring this year, so I am hoping next year to be able to keep that line alive.

I know this probably doesn't give you a definite answer but as soon as I know I will forward the information to you.

Okay thanks, I would like more info, I have a group myself but have know luck breeding them, either infertile eggs or males not interested in the females, this some times happens when the snakes that you are trying to breed are not pure.

Blaze Mcsmith · 10-09-12, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TremTricolors

Pete, it has been a discussion as of late between myself and a few others. If you are talking about the old line of "Bullseye" that was introduced into the amel gene I believe it came from L.t.nelsoni. The patternless gene also from my understanding came from L.t.nelsoni. Robert Sieb bred these in decent numbers. I know Applegate says his striped sinaloans are pure sinaloans and came from his line of sinaloans. I do have a pair from before he introduced the amel gene into that line and I will hopefully be able to reproduce the striped gene.

Shannon Brown bred a amelanistic L.t.nelsoni from Don Wilson to a wild caught female back in 1997. Some of the offspring were aberrant. I have an original pair from that breeding but she didn't produce any offspring this year, so I am hoping next year to be able to keep that line alive.

I know this probably doesn't give you a definite answer but as soon as I know I will forward the information to you.

no pics just rumor but when you breed these let me know -

Jlassiter · 10-09-12, 04:11 PM

I have never heard of knoblochi crossed with anything except pyros.......But some of those once thought to be pyros are now considered knobs if you go by the pyro paper....lol

Jlassiter · 10-09-12, 04:14 PM

That's a textbook nelsoni Jimmy!

TremTricolors · 10-09-12, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blaze Mcsmith

no pics just rumor but when you breed these let me know -

I just sold the rest of the clutch. I kept him and his sibling back to breed back to mom and sibling. Mom was an old school het for nothing. I wish I had locale data or collection data but all the leads for her parental lineage went dead. I should have some more next year along with the offspring from a 1997 pair that parents were a wild caught female and a 7 Generation(Don Wilson) amelanistic male.

TremTricolors · 10-09-12, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jlassiter

I have never heard of knoblochi crossed with anything except pyros.......But some of those once thought to be pyros are now considered knobs if you go by the pyro paper....lol

Geez John, don't get me started on that piece of paper.LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jlassiter

That's a textbook nelsoni Jimmy!

Thanks John, one of my favorites I produced this year. Here's some more of the siblings

Jlassiter · 10-09-12, 05:22 PM

I can see how some confused these with arcifera but not sinaloae....
They look great!

Blaze Mcsmith · 10-10-12, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TremTricolors

I just sold the rest of the clutch. I kept him and his sibling back to breed back to mom and sibling. Mom was an old school het for nothing. I wish I had locale data or collection data but all the leads for her parental lineage went dead. I should have some more next year along with the offspring from a 1997 pair that parents were a wild caught female and a 7 Generation(Don Wilson) amelanistic male.

cool -like i said when you have some available.

TremTricolors · 10-10-12, 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Q

Okay thanks, I would like more info, I have a group myself but have know luck breeding them, either infertile eggs or males not interested in the females, this some times happens when the snakes that you are trying to breed are not pure.

Pete, I don't think purity of your animals is the case. If that was the case all these hybrids wouldn't be produced and just as fertile as "pure" animals. I am thinking either the pair you have is just not compatible or your male is not producing viable sperm. Just remember that L.t.sinaloae and L.t.nelsoni breed a lot later in the year than say most other triangulum species. I find that L.t.nelsoni don't start their ovulation til after the second and mostly their 3rd post brumation sheds. Same with sinaloae. Try to keep your males a little cooler with a max heat exposure of 78 F. Your males may be getting to warm and killing their sperm. This is just a guess, as I don't know what your husbandry techniques are....

TremTricolors · 10-10-12, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jlassiter

I can see how some confused these with arcifera but not sinaloae....
They look great!

John they have only been so confusing in the hobby because of all the breeders using sinaloae to produce more amels back in the day. I have to agree they should be more confused with L.t.arcifera. But even then there are more than subtle differences between them. It's just amazing to me with all the L.t.nelsoni floating around nobody has any true "Locale" L.t.nelsoni. We have locality of most other popular subs-species but not L.t.nelsoni....

Pete Q · 10-12-12, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TremTricolors

Pete, I don't think purity of your animals is the case. If that was the case all these hybrids wouldn't be produced and just as fertile as "pure" animals. I am thinking either the pair you have is just not compatible or your male is not producing viable sperm. Just remember that L.t.sinaloae and L.t.nelsoni breed a lot later in the year than say most other triangulum species. I find that L.t.nelsoni don't start their ovulation til after the second and mostly their 3rd post brumation sheds. Same with sinaloae. Try to keep your males a little cooler with a max heat exposure of 78 F. Your males may be getting to warm and killing their sperm. This is just a guess, as I don't know what your husbandry techniques are....

Good tips there, thankyou.
I have found in my experience that hybrids are less fertile than pure, they sometimes can be as fertile but often not.