Burm/ball hybrid

[CDN_Blood]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Personally, My feelings are this..... That abomination poses a threat to the true royals, since many states are banning giants, the moment giant BP's become common, it's entirely possible, or maybe even likely that they will modify the bans.

Come on people.. what exactly does this crossing accomplish?? the hobby is suffering already without giant Royals in the picture.

I agree 100%. It's not secret that I think that any & all hybrids are abominations and it makes me *so* angry that anyone would even consider them, let alone create them. It's entirely unethical and unnatural. If it were up to me, creating hybrids would be criminalized and they existing hybrids would be destroyed in order to preserve original genetic codes.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

I agree 100%. It's not secret that I think that any & all hybrids are abominations and it makes me *so* angry that anyone would even consider them, let alone create them. It's entirely unethical and unnatural. If it were up to me, creating hybrids would be criminalized and they existing hybrids would be destroyed in order to preserve original genetic codes.

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?

It can be considered entirely unethical and is 100% unnatural to keep snakes in cages in your home. It is not natural for them to be kept on news paper. It is not natural for them not to bask in natural sunlight. It is not natural for them to get fed white lab rodents. It is not natural for YOU to pick who breeds with who. When you breed reptiles in captivity, there is no natural selection. Natural selection is thrown out the window once you pair up your breeders. So, you are not preserving any original gentic codes. Besides that, hybrids have been produced for over 20 years and the gene pools are not destroyed and it is very easy to find pure animals.

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

Hybrids are not my favorite but there are quite a few that I do like. I woud also never tell someone who breeds them that they are criminals. To each their own. Whats great about this hobby is how diverse it is and hybrids just add to that diversity. Bring them on!!!

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?....

I know it's become a generalized hybrid debate but show me the wild caught burmese x ball python hybrid and we can then talk all about the natural intergrades.

One point to make about locale purity is that some snakes regions cross over. Most notable is the Guyana and Surinam regions and their locale boas. Only we as people have made imaginary lines through the jungle that these snakes do not obey. I'm sure there's more crosses of these that just happen to look like one of the parents out there as a "pure".

As stated though, in the wild the bloodlines get diluted back through more breeding or simply they don't make it to adulthood to reproduce.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I know it's become a generalized hybrid debate but show me the wild caught burmese x ball python hybrid and we can then talk all about the natural intergrades.

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

I see your point but I'm just not going to debate it. It's a discussion I rather not get into as it's never ending.

I see your point as I mentioned on what you were talking about with natural intergrades.

I think it's interesting that two animals can make hybrids. Fertile ones at that. It's personally not something I wish to do though. I prefer all my pretty colours.

[jaleely]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

He was wild caught in west Africa. Came in on an import from Ghana. He was an adult when he was imported. These wild caught hybrids come in pretty often. Wild caught female gaboons that were gravid at the time of import have dropped entire litters of hybrids as well.

I think that's kind of cool, actually. I still like the look of a plain old gaboon viper though! : )

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

ah kind of a good point. I mull over this a lot. I kind of disagree with muddy lines, but then i also believe that if they weren't close enough genetically to breed, then it just wouldn't happen...and therefore may not be a big deal.

I also go back and forth about morphs. Some people made some good points about the garters and other snakes in Europe that have been "inbred" for generations, because that's all that were available. I DO think that there had to be some pretty strong genetics to begin with to last this long, and i do think that picking out morphs can sometimes also strengthen genetic faults...in the case of all the snakes coming from one set of parents, people aren't breeding morphs, they're just breeding to breed them...so perhaps some traits aren't strengthened, but may be passed on but are recessive. When it comes to specific pattern and color breeding, as with morphs, i guess i just wish snake temperament and health played a bigger factor rather than color and pattern.

I don't know. Sometimes i am swayed. lol I admit it. We'll have to see how i feel after i breed. I plan to breed my dumeril's boas, sand boas, and hognoses, maybe my garters, all in the future *shrug*

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

Do you have proof to support this? First hand experience maybe?

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Do you have proof to support this? First hand experience maybe?

Yeah, take a look at hybrids that can produce viable offspring. So far, every species of snake that has been hybridized successfully are fertile. If their gentic codes did not match up, we would not even be having this debate. My first hand experience is with my gaboon/rhino viper hybrids. You can not deny what happens infront of your face. Obviously, there are certain crosses that can not happen in reptiles because of their genetic differences.

Taxonomy is a man made ology. LOL. What taxonomist used to believe is flipped upside down because of viable, fertile reptilian hybrids. These animals are a lot closer related than we once thought.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Yeah, take a look at hybrids that can produce viable offspring. So far, every species of snake that has been hybridized successfully are fertile. If their gentic codes did not match up, we would not even be having this debate. My first hand experience is with my gaboon/rhino viper hybrids. You can not deny what happens infront of your face. Obviously, there are certain crosses that can not happen in reptiles because of their genetic differences.

Taxonomy is a man made ology. LOL. What taxonomist used to believe is flipped upside down because of viable, fertile reptilian hybrids. These animals are a lot closer related than we once thought.

Well Greg I never took you yo be one of them!

Go back and read what I put in bold. Maybe you will feel differently about admitting it on a public forum!

[FangsAnarchy]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?

It can be considered entirely unethical and is 100% unnatural to keep snakes in cages in your home. It is not natural for them to be kept on news paper. It is not natural for them not to bask in natural sunlight. It is not natural for them to get fed white lab rodents. It is not natural for YOU to pick who breeds with who. When you breed reptiles in captivity, there is no natural selection. Natural selection is thrown out the window once you pair up your breeders. So, you are not preserving any original gentic codes. Besides that, hybrids have been produced for over 20 years and the gene pools are not destroyed and it is very easy to find pure animals.

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

Hybrids are not my favorite but there are quite a few that I do like. I woud also never tell someone who breeds them that they are criminals. To each their own. Whats great about this hobby is how diverse it is and hybrids just add to that diversity. Bring them on!!!

Thank you!

[Snakeman8]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?

It can be considered entirely unethical and is 100% unnatural to keep snakes in cages in your home. It is not natural for them to be kept on news paper. It is not natural for them not to bask in natural sunlight. It is not natural for them to get fed white lab rodents. It is not natural for YOU to pick who breeds with who. When you breed reptiles in captivity, there is no natural selection. Natural selection is thrown out the window once you pair up your breeders. So, you are not preserving any original gentic codes. Besides that, hybrids have been produced for over 20 years and the gene pools are not destroyed and it is very easy to find pure animals.

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

Hybrids are not my favorite but there are quite a few that I do like. I woud also never tell someone who breeds them that they are criminals. To each their own. Whats great about this hobby is how diverse it is and hybrids just add to that diversity. Bring them on!!!

i agree! except i adore hybrids.