Burm/ball hybrid

[StudentoReptile]

Well said, Gregg.

My only beef with hybrids is the possible reduction and muddying to pure bloodlines. I don't necessarily have a problem with the hybrid animal itself. But when I want a pure locality BCI, or alterna, or whatever, I don't want a mutt.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

But when I want a pure locality BCI, or alterna, or whatever, I don't want a mutt.

And they are easily obtainable. Many anti hybrid people try to play the "muddy blood" card all the time but have yet to prove their case. I too love my pure stuff and like you, if I am looking for something particular, I do not want a mutt. But if I saw a really crazy hybrid that I liked, I would buy it in a second.

Here is a male wild caught gaboon rhino viper hybrid.



And here are some F2 gaboon rhino viper hybrids. Yes the hybrids are very fertile.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

And they are easily obtainable.

For most cases, this is probably true. But I'm sure there are some cases where the species/subspecies/locality in question is not that easy to come by, yet hybrids are made anyway.

Again, like you, I don't think its fair to tell anyone not to do it anymore than its fair to tell someone its not okay to linebreed, or feed live in a separate container, or whatever. As with anything else in this hobby, there's people who obviously create hybrids responsibly and accurately represent them. And there's people who don't care and just toss things together (so to speak, I know there's a little more to making a hybrid than that).
----------------------------
One of my personal pet peeves (100% my own opinion, and not a judgment on what should or shouldn't be done) is ugly hybrids. I know you can never really tell what the offspring is going to look like, but you can kinda guess. And if it comes out and grows up to be butt-ugly, for the love of crap, don't produce anymore!

[stevenrudge]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

And they are easily obtainable. Many anti hybrid people try to play the "muddy blood" card all the time but have yet to prove their case. I too love my pure stuff and like you, if I am looking for something particular, I do not want a mutt. But if I saw a really crazy hybrid that I liked, I would buy it in a second.

Here is a male wild caught gaboon rhino viper hybrid.



And here are some F2 gaboon rhino viper hybrids. Yes the hybrids are very fertile.

You could say that your both right,my main objection is that the way legislation is moving the future free movement of reps ( import/ export/ overland)is looking doubtful at best,and 10 -15 years in the future we do not want to be in the position of not being able to obtain pure true lines of captive species and not being able to obtain replacement W/C stock,in the way that the various Locals have come into play,and your point about natural hybridization,yes of course this happens but its not very common and these hybrids are not going to live in a confined gene poll are they,in their wild state their genes would naturally disperse back or might as you say from a new spp or local,this is un-proven,l like your response to certain problem morphs these are un-ethical and posse a bigger problem

[snake man12]

Those pics are beautiful.

[jaleely]

I didn't think CDN_blood bred snakes...

As for the gaboon rhino viper hybrid, where did they find that thing? lol
I love, love, love gaboon vipers...i love their look all on their own. I'd like some more pics of that lil guy. The babies are kind of...not as pretty as a regular gaboon *lol*

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by jaleely

I didn't think CDN_blood bred snakes...

As for the gaboon rhino viper hybrid, where did they find that thing? lol
I love, love, love gaboon vipers...i love their look all on their own. I'd like some more pics of that lil guy. The babies are kind of...not as pretty as a regular gaboon *lol*

He was wild caught in west Africa. Came in on an import from Ghana. He was an adult when he was imported. These wild caught hybrids come in pretty often. Wild caught female gaboons that were gravid at the time of import have dropped entire litters of hybrids as well.

As far as CDN_Blood not breeding, that is neither here nor there. I just found it funny that he says this....

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

I agree 100%. It's not secret that I think that any & all hybrids are abominations and it makes me *so* angry that anyone would even consider them, let alone create them. It's entirely unethical and unnatural. If it were up to me, creating hybrids would be criminalized and they existing hybrids would be destroyed in order to preserve original genetic codes.

Yet is is fine for him to own a MORPH (not a subspecies) that carries a gene that give it a neurological disorder. Whats worse, creating a healthy good looking hybrid or perpetuating genetics that make your snakes wobble, cork screw, and flip on their backs?

[CDN_Blood]

Originally Posted by jaleely

I didn't think CDN_blood bred snakes...

I don't, but at some point I may breed one of my Rainbow boas to help encourage the move to smaller, legal boas in my own area since there don't seem to be any Rainbows around here and Boa constrictors are prohibited.

Is someone saying I breed snakes? That'd be just what we need - more misinformation from folks who don't know what they're talkin' about, lol

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by stevenrudge

You could say that your both right,my main objection is that the way legislation is moving the future free movement of reps ( import/ export/ overland)is looking doubtful at best,and 10 -15 years in the future we do not want to be in the position of not being able to obtain pure true lines of captive species and not being able to obtain replacement W/C stock,in the way that the various Locals have come into play,and your point about natural hybridization,yes of course this happens but its not very common and these hybrids are not going to live in a confined gene poll are they,in their wild state their genes would naturally disperse back or might as you say from a new spp or local,this is un-proven,l like your response to certain problem morphs these are un-ethical and posse a bigger problem

Well thought out post and an actual good reponsed why you are not crazy about it.

Originally Posted by CDN_Blood

Is someone saying I breed snakes? That'd be just what we need - more misinformation from folks who don't know what they're talkin' about, lol

No one said you were breeding. I put the word breeding in question form because I did not know if you were ore not. Here is what I said so it does get twisted.

Originally Posted by Gregg M

What makes what you do any more ethical than someone who breeds two animals of a different species and creates some cool looking offspring? Nothing at all, so get off the high horse, Mr. "ethics". All this talk about ethics yet you are keeping (and breeding?) a carpet python morph that is as well known for its neurological defect as it is for its cool pattern. Way to go preserving those all important original genetic codes!! A bit hypocritical, dont you think?

[Will0W783]

I think the hybrids are fine if they are clearly represented as such and the gene pools of pure species are maintained as well. There are some hybrids that cause a lot of problems to the snakes, and are rarely viable, but many of the hybrids do just fine and are really neat-looking.

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

Oh dear god...please tell me you're joking. Please tell me you do not believe that is true. Can you provide references?

As far as I know, only six Afrocks have been found in Florida since 2002, and not in the areas where Burmese have been documented. There is no evidence that the two species have successfully hybridized in Florida, nor is there there any evidence that such a crossing would be "hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells."

Again...I'd like to know where you are getting your information from to back that claim.

[Little Wise Owl]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

I think the hybrids are fine if they are clearly represented as such and the gene pools of pure species are maintained as well. There are some hybrids that cause a lot of problems to the snakes, and are rarely viable, but many of the hybrids do just fine and are really neat-looking.

This.

Back onto the Burm/Ball... I've heard they have very nasty temperaments. They're beautiful though.

[bcr226]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

I think the hybrids are fine if they are clearly represented as such and the gene pools of pure species are maintained as well. There are some hybrids that cause a lot of problems to the snakes, and are rarely viable, but many of the hybrids do just fine and are really neat-looking.

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

Do you have any links to the hybrid burms and rocks? I'm very interested in learning more about that. Especially with them becoming hardier and resistant to cold.

A few years ago, there was a snake found in the Sleepy Creek WMA in WV. The people that found it said it was a rattler but that it didn't look like any of the species found around here. Someone mentioned a possible hybrid between two rattler species here that could have created it. Never heard anything more about it afterwards.

[Will0W783]

I thought they had documented proof of hybridization and the hybrids were bigger? They're not "Super snakes" or any real threat beyond the Burms, but I could have sworn I read something actually documenting genetic proof of hybrids. I could be wrong though. I certainly don't believe all the ridiculous hype that goes on. Most of the populations of Burms, Afrocks AND others have died out because of the really cold winter Florida had.

[Will0W783]

As stated though, in the wild the bloodlines get diluted back through more breeding or simply they don't make it to adulthood to reproduce.

Yep! This is one of the reasons we have to be careful what we do breeding-wise in captivity. We've removed natural selection and evolutionary pressures, so it's completely our responsibility to ensure we only breed healthy animals.