Line Breeding

[Strutter769]

Let's have a little essay question, shall we?

Please, in your own words explain how line-breeding is at times necessary to "prove" traits, yet detrimental to the animals created an later generations. How safe is it? What generation is still "ok," F3-F4? Higher? How do we know these upper generations are really "ok" genetically after, say, F1?

Thanks for reading!

[marvelfreak]

Wish i could help you, but i have know clue. Just thought i bump this for you.

[exwizard]

I understand this dilemma. On one hand, its the fastest way to produce multiple morphs from multihet snakes, but on the other hand, I still try to avoid this for other reasons. For example, I have 2 pairs of clutchmate Macklots that I will wait until the younger pair is old enough to breed before switching them off in order to have 2 unrelated pairs.

From everything Ive read, line breeding does not have detrimental effects on the F1 generation but If you continue to do this gen after gen, then you will start to see problems.

[jaleely]

I would think that common sense would be a huge factor here. Whenever you inbreed you are strengthening the bad genes as well as the traits you find desirable.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by Strutter769

Let's have a little essay question, shall we?

Please, in your own words explain how line-breeding is at times necessary to "prove" traits, yet detrimental to the animals created an later generations. How safe is it? What generation is still "ok," F3-F4? Higher? How do we know these upper generations are really "ok" genetically after, say, F1?

Thanks for reading!

Depends on the "traits"... are you talking about genetic traits (co-dom or recessive) or are you talking about polygenic traits... high yellows, some hypos, patterns, stripes etc?

What do youy mean by detrimental?

[Strutter769]

Originally Posted by red ink

Depends on the "traits"... are you talking about genetic traits (co-dom or recessive) or are you talking about polygenic traits... high yellows, some hypos, patterns, stripes etc?

What do youy mean by detrimental?

Mostly polygenic I'd say. More intense saddles on the BCC (Anyone familiar with "Mega Peaks? Produced by a member of another forum.), like I said a few times. I'd really like a dorsally striped Pearl BRB, things like that.

I'm so terrified to give away my ideas in fear of enticing those that can/will do it Yeats before I do. Silly, I know.

Detrimental - See Spider Ball Python. I REALLY don't want to breed somethin' KNOWING it has a defect, and I'd like to prevent it any reasonable way necessary!

[red ink]

Originally Posted by Strutter769

Mostly polygenic I'd say. More intense saddles on the BCC (Anyone familiar with "Mega Peaks? Produced by a member of another forum.), like I said a few times. I'd really like a dorsally striped Pearl BRB, things like that.

I'm so terrified to give away my ideas in fear of enticing those that can/will do it Yeats before I do. Silly, I know.

Detrimental - See Spider Ball Python. I REALLY don't want to breed somethin' KNOWING it has a defect, and I'd like to prevent it any reasonable way necessary!

No other way to breed a high ratio of polygenic traits other than to line breed... Any trait that is not a genetic trait can only be produced by line breeding. I.e. if you take a line bred animal with a polygenic trait like stripes for example, by out crossing that with one that does not have that trait you will be taking several steps back as the polygenic trait gets mixed in with pattern traits that do not manifest stripes.

Another example is colour... take line bred high colour animals and outcross that to animals that don't have the high colour you pretty much go backwards.

There ain't no quick short cut with polygenic traits unfortunately... unlike genetic traits.

I don't know what genetics are in play in spider balls... that saying I do not know a single detrimental defect in polygenic line bred animals either.

[beardeds4life]

it depends what you mean by line breeding. If I have a pair of ball pythons and they pop out a weird looking baby I would the first season breed them back to the parents. This will do no harm. I would also breed it to its siblings and animals with the same trait. If done correctly no harm will come to any of the animals.

[Strutter769]

Originally Posted by beardeds4life

it depends what you mean by line breeding. If I have a pair of ball pythons and they pop out a weird looking baby I would the first season breed them back to the parents. This will do no harm. I would also breed it to its siblings and animals with the same trait. If done correctly no harm will come to any of the animals.

Very well explained. Thank you! So breeding back to the parent's makes F2. I presume breeding to a sibling is also F2?

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Strutter769

Let's have a little essay question, shall we?

Please, in your own words explain how line-breeding is at times necessary to "prove" traits, yet detrimental to the animals created an later generations. How safe is it? What generation is still "ok," F3-F4? Higher? How do we know these upper generations are really "ok" genetically after, say, F1?

Thanks for reading!

its only carpets i keep and research

i ave heard of no issues with F5,F6 and higher generation carpets

re to proove traits
after breeding 2 normal looking pure snakes,if you get 2 hatchlings with say, an unseen before strange looking pattern.you can proove its a genetic trait by way of line breeding.you then breed the strange hatchlings back to each other and if more hatchlings come out their clutch showing the particular pattern trait,then it shows its genetic.

if for instance its a polygenic trait.if you breed 2 of the best looking F2's together,it should stregnthen the trait in F3's,making them better looking and of higher quality,then the best looking 2 of the F3's,should produce the F4's trait even stronger better looking

i currently have an F2 irian jaya high yellow,reduced pattern line breeding project

i'm hoping to produce at least 2 or 3 F3's of a brighter,cleaner,crisper yellow,with an even more reduced pattern

i see no health issues going up into F4.F5 even F6 with carpets

obviously if health issues appeared,then breeding would be STOPPED IMMEDIATELY

cheers shaun

[Strutter769]

Shauny, nicely done mate, I have a much better understanding. Why are forums so much easire to understand than books? Both ways require reading only.....

Ok, so what is the difference between breeding back to a parent, and breeding back to a sibling?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Strutter769

Shauny, nicely done mate, I have a much better understanding. Why are forums so much easire to understand than books? Both ways require reading only.....

Ok, so what is the difference between breeding back to a parent, and breeding back to a sibling?

Depends on what you're doing.

In general, siblings may both exhibit higher looking peaks than both their parents so to get your desired result you would probably breed the siblings together.

On the other hand, if you're looking to prove a recessive trait, like albino, you're better off breeding to a parent as it'll be faster to get the results. (Example, son matures within 18 months for breeding to breed to the mother where as the sister would take an additional 18 months so you'd be waiting closer to four years instead of 2)

[Strutter769]

^^^^^Thank you!^^^^^

I just received (as seen in "Epicrates" room) 1.1 bullseyes from a pearl father who in the past has thrown some really nice pearls. (Huge thank you to Aubrey @ Slipstream!) So, breeding them back to each other *should* also produce pearls, correct? Is that line breeding at it's finest?

Then, the male holdbacks would be bread to Minnie, my female pearl, unrelated to anyone giving fresh bloodlines.

At the same time, I could (if I were wealthy) have my dorsal stripe project, eventually combine the two....and.... voilá!

[red ink]

Originally Posted by Strutter769

^^^^^Thank you!^^^^^

I just received (as seen in "Epicrates" room) 1.1 bullseyes from a pearl father who in the past has thrown some really nice pearls. (Huge thank you to Aubrey @ Slipstream!) So, breeding them back to each other *should* also produce pearls, correct? Is that line breeding at it's finest?

Then, the male holdbacks would be bread to Minnie, my female pearl, unrelated to anyone giving fresh bloodlines.

At the same time, I could (if I were wealthy) have my dorsal stripe project, eventually combine the two....and.... voilá!

Depends if pearls are polygenic or a genetic mutation (like T+ albanism - genetic hypo)? If it is a polygenic trait then yes you will get pearls in varrying degrees of "pearlness" depending on how far down the line they are in line breeding you may still pop out some normals (throw backs).

Breeding them to an outsourced pearl will bring you back to square 1 as in first pearl breeding with unknown results.

Introducing a dorsal stripe polygenic without a pearl trait carried by the dorsal striped specimen un does all your pearl work. It would be like starting a line breeding program from scratch with only one pearl individual as a starting point for pearls. The same wll hold true for the polygenic dorsal stripe, starting from zero (unless you already have a striped pearl lol)

[millertime89]

I have no problems with line breeding as long as you don't breed snakes with obviously detrimental defects such as kinks and other deformities, head wobble, neuro issues, things like that. Snakes that have these problems pop up need to be sold as pets, and nothing more.