New, and have some questions - Page 2

Will0W783 · 11-08-09, 08:24 AM

I would strongly suggest getting some books on giant pythons and reading them. I would also suggest spending some time with someone who has a giant python so you can get some hands-on experience and learn about them and how they move, behave, etc. You should never, ever, hold a snake longer than 8 feet without someone else in the room. It might seem over the top to you because you've never had hands-on experience with these snakes, but if you hold a 12'-15' snake, you will begin to understand the incredible power it has. A 6 foot snake, if in the right position with the right girth, could theoretically kill you if it got around your neck. An 8 foot snake as well. Anything larger, definitely. While most Burmese pythons are docile and easy-going snakes, all it takes is one time. In my honest opinion, and I am not trying to be mean or unfair, you do not have anywhere near the right frame of mind to own ANY snake, let alone a giant python. A snake will depend on you for everything- food, water, hiding places, clean bedding, heat and coolness, interaction. Snakes will also live 20-30 years in captivity. It is a big, serious responsibility. The fact that you said if you thought your future snake was getting too big you'd sell it is a big red flag. You need to understand the space and time requirements BEFORE you buy and make sure you are ready to take care of that animal for its entire life. Also, you seem to think wrestling and fighting with a snake is "cool". That is definitely NOT a good frame of mind, and you are asking for trouble thinking that way. Your goal should be to have only positive interactions with your snake.
This does not mean I don't think you should ever own a snake, just that I think you need to change your thinking and get some experience around people who own snakes before you even consider getting one. I also do not think a giant python should be your first snake. I am willing to talk to you and help you learn and give you advice, but only you can make yourself mature enough to be ready for a giant python. I've been keeping snakes for over 5 years, and other reptiles my entire life, and I do not consider myself ready for a giant python, because I understand what owning one entails and I prefer to stick with slightly smaller species. Do your research, get some experience, and go from there. Good luck.

citysnakes · 11-08-09, 09:59 AM

i think we all need to chill on the "epic burm battle" comment as it clearly was a joke...

Rham_Es-Hestos · 11-08-09, 01:18 PM

Will0W, what if I don't have any friends who own a giant? The only time I've ever interacted with a giant was right before we moved I believe. A man brought a 7' retic in one day for us to see and hold. I can access books and other written information, heck, I'm here on this forum for that reason. If I can't get to someone who owns a big one, how am I going to get a hands on experience to Learn how they move and behave? It's not like if I never hold a big snake before owning one, the one I buy is going to know that and as soon as it gets a chance throw a couple coils around me and kill me because of it. The general feeling I'm getting from you is that you're saying that unless I have had experience owning a snake and have read all about them, I'm gonna get wrapped or bitten when I go out and buy a burm as my first big snake. I know you mean well, though I have been told that if they are handled correctly and are cbb, I will never have a problem. So to me, it would seem that as long as I read about them and learn as much as possible before buying it, I should be fine as long as I'm always alert and handling properly. That make any sense?

Citysnakes, thanks. I've said numerous times that people were taking it the wrong way and have explained myself. I'm not sure what else I can do at this point.

Will0W783 · 11-09-09, 08:48 AM

No I'm not trying to say that. I just was concerned about the attitude you seemed to have about being bitten/wrapped. If you don't know anyone who has one, then yes, reading about them and doing your research should be fine. I just wanted to make sure you had the right frame of mind about it is all. I love snakes and dont' want to ever discourage someone from owning them, but they are a big responsibility and require a certain maturity. Burms are generally quite docile, so if you get a young one and handle it regularly you most likely won't have problems. I'm sorry to have come down on you, you are doing the right thing by researching before you buy. Just be careful and smart about it and you should be fine. Best of luck, and again I didn't mean to offend you, just wanted to make sure where you were coming from considering how you opened your thread.

Rham_Es-Hestos · 11-09-09, 09:20 AM

I had heard about snake wrestling as a sport somewhere before and thought it sounded very interesting. To clarify, I think it sounds interesting as in intriguing, not as in ‘I want to do that’. The joke about wrestling a 15’ burm came from the idea of wrestling snakes that I had heard of earlier that day. The whole wrestling thing is an interesting concept, but at the same time, Im thinking a bad idea. From what I’ve learned so far, getting on any snake’s bad side is a big mistake, that’s why I’m trying to learn what I can about them before buying one. I don’t want something bad to happen. Have you ever heard of wrestling like that before?

Will0W783 · 11-09-09, 11:02 AM

Ohhh ok...I wasn't aware that you were joking about that- your phrasing made it sound as if you honestly thought it would be "awesome" and "epic" to wrestle your pet burm, which had me worried because you could be killed doing that kind of thing. I know different cultures have different customs with snakes. I have heard of wrestling giant snakes for fun, but not as so much of a legitimate sport. Jackass guys did a stunt with two aggressive green anacondas in a ball pit and got pretty torn up by the snakes. They were trying to find the snakes in the balls and wrestle them out. It does sound like an interesting concept, but really stupid as well- people could very easily be killed, even if there were a lot of people, getting a constricting python off a guy could be next to impossible without killing the snake and that's just cruel.
Basically, getting on any snake's bad side is detrimental to you and the animal. You can get hurt, and the animal can get unnecessarily stressed. But almost any snake can be tamed down with calm, consistent handling. For example, I have a 5-foot Macklot's python that was not handled very much. He is calm if you are wearing a long-sleeved shirt and gloves, but if I held him bare-handed or with my arms bear, he bites. It's more of a food response than aggression with him, so I handle him only with gloves and a sweatshirt on so as to be able to condition him to interaction without "asking for it" or adding too much stress for him.
I know most people who have Burms say they are "gentle giants" and they are similar to an overgrown ball python in demeanor and activity, but those snakes have probably been handled a lot since early age.
Now that I know you were only joking before, your other questions and attitudes sound ok. You just want to really consider how much space a 15' snake will take up. Most captive Burmese pythons get 13-17', average around 12-14' from what I've read. They can get up to 20'+ but most don't do to controlled feeding and space. But a 15' snake will need an enclosure that is 8' x8' x2' minimum, preferable an enclosure it can stretch out in, so ideally 15'x8'x2'. That's basically a whole room to itself. Heating an enclosure that large will be very expensive and the animal will need to eat rabbits or chickens when it is full-grown. You want to consider where you can get those prey items near you and get the snake eating frozen/thawed rodents while young so you can more easily and affordably get it larger prey items when it is full-grown.
You will probably be best off getting a baby Burmese python so you can get it used to you and work on shaping its temperament from a young age. The snake will easily double its first year of life,half again as much or more its second year, and likely half again as much its third year. So that 3-foot baby will be 6 feet in a year, 9-12 feet its second year, and up to 16' its third year. From then on it will only get fatter, possibly gain a foot or so every few years. It will be cheapest if you buy second-hand cages or build your own as you will need to increase size a lot during the first two years until it's up to its adult enclosure. I absolutely love Burmese pythons- they are calm and docile snakes, and very impressive and beautiful, but I would have to sell everything else I own to have the space to house one single adult Burm. So one thing to consider is maybe getting several smaller snakes, so you can have some variety. Carpet pythons are one of my absolute favorites- coastal carpets get 6-8 feet, jungles get 5-6 feet and so do Irian jayas. They are active snakes that like to move around and explore, and they tend to be very calm and docile as adults. I have a 8'4" male carpet coastal intergrade that is one of my absolute favorite snakes. He's active, curious, extremely docile and a good eater. I trust him with little kids and complete strangers as he's never shown any defensiveness or aggression towards anyone. Another cool thing about carpets is that they tend to be "vocal" snakes- some blow air out through their nostrils quite loudly when excited and exploring. It's not quite like a hiss, more like a loud forced sigh, but it's really cute. Voodoo does that all the time, as soon as he comes out of his cage and he climbs all over me huffing loudly and flicking his tongue all over the place. He also loves banisters and the shower curtain rod- he coils his way up them and inches along. And the best thing is, even though he's over 8 feet long, he's only about 8 pounds, so he's light and can easily be managed by one person. If you are at all interested, I have some pictures of him in my Member Gallery here. In the space for one Burm, you could house 2 coastal carpets, or 1 coastal, 1 jungle carpet, 2 ball pythons ( or Blood pythons, or any other small python). Just an idea, because if you're like most of us snake-keepers, you will quickly find that one snake does not satisfy your desire and you'll want this and that and more and it's nice to have space to expand your collection and add some variety.

Good 'N Plenty · 11-09-09, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rham_Es-Hestos

It's not like if I never hold a big snake before owning one, the one I buy is going to know that and as soon as it gets a chance throw a couple coils around me and kill me because of it.

My strongest point was that my concern is first and foremost for the snake. This is because, unlike us humans, the snake has no ability to look into and alter its environment, living conditions or husbandry.

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I have been told that if they are handled correctly and are cbb, I will never have a problem. So to me, it would seem that as long as I read about them and learn as much as possible before buying it, I should be fine as long as I'm always alert and handling properly. That make any sense?

Knowledge is power, but knowledge is not the whole thing. Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. The idea is to "practice" in the sense that you gain hands on experience in handling them. Remember - a burm is not always a giant, and for a while you will be handling them much like you would snakes even the size of ball pythons. Not for overly long, but they will be.

I believe I understood your joke was simply misworded from the start (as I made comment on), and from then my concern has been mostly that any suggestions that a burm is not a first snake have been brushed aside to comments of 1) "I have heard they are gentle giants", 2) "I will do my research" and 3) "I am most interested in a large snake."

1) In my opinion, it is true that burms are typically the calmest of the giant constrictors, so I won't disagree with you here, but simply offer the caveat that there are 'never's with snakes.

2) The fact that you are doing research is commendable and encouraging! However, as noted above, one of the facts you have been told numerous times is that knowledge is only 1/2 the preparation in owning a giant.

3) This last point as your main defense for why you want a burm is the one that I have expressly said raises the most flags in my mind. While the desire to have and interact with the animals we are fascinated with is certainly the driving force for us herpers, the fact is what the animal needs and wants is always - and without exception - what comes first.

My wishlist: Male Green Anaconda, Female Burmese Python.
Even assuming I had the money and room for both of these snakes right now, I recognize that the factor that would still stop me from owning them is myself. Not my commitment to my animals or any notion that I would not be attentive to them, but the fact that even though I have years of ever-changing and developing research on them, the fact remains that I have no experience with an animal close to their sizes and I am less worried about anything that might happen to me than I am about what problems my lack of experience my end up causing the snake.
My yellow anaconda is my first venture into larger snakes, but this is after 13 years of herp owning, making mistakes as a child, and learning from hands on experience.
I am not suggesting such a long time of ownership is necessary, I was a child and had no business owning larger snakes. However *nothing* and I do mean NOTHING can replace hands on experience.

If I have offended, I am sorry but what I have read and the defenses of your seemingly-set-in-stone choice to start with a burm, shows to me that you are looking only for information that will help support your desire for a burm. Any information to the contrary has had the rebuttals of "I've heard they're gentle" and "I really want a burm."

The snakes come first.

~ GNP

Will0W783 · 11-09-09, 02:50 PM

Good points GNP! That is exactly what I was trying to convey to him as well. I also don't consider myself "ready" or prepared for a giant python although I do love them and want one someday. I don't have the time, the space, the money, or the experience handling very large snakes. That's why I suggested he start with something smaller but still impressive like a carpet or a blood or even a red-tail boa (they get 8-10 feet) and build from there. I know several people who have bought retics and burms as first snakes, and most of them have now gotten rid of those giant snakes and moved to smaller animals. It's just that nothing can compare to hands-on experience with these giants (which I admit I myself do not have!).

Rham-es-Hestos, are there any reptile shows near you? Those are excellent places to go and peruse a wide variety of snake species and handle them before you buy. I strongly suggest that whatever snake you do end up getting you do not get it from a pet store. You will pay a lot more for one thing, and pet stores almost never have proper husbandry for their snakes, nor do they know the animals' histories or breeders. It's always best to get a snake directly from the breeder, so you know what it's been eating, any health problems it or its clutchmates may have had, and the genetic history and temperaments of the parents/grandparents, etc.
In fact, if you want to gain handling experience and don't know anyone who owns snakes, start going to shows. It's the best way to get exposure to the snakes and see what's out there. Watch how different sellers handle their animals, what they feed, how often, etc. My knowledge and comfort level with the snakes has skyrocketed since I started going to shows. I have spoken to so many experienced keepers and breeders, gotten word of who is good and who is not, handled hundreds of snakes and seen various temperaments- good and bad....
Where in the US are you? I might be able to suggest a few good shows for you to go to to start getting your exposure.

jmo · 11-10-09, 01:02 AM

willow made a good point about the size of a cage u need to keep these guys in.like i said i have a 14' female and a 15' male burm i got a shed like a barn its 12' by 24' to keep some of my guys in .there cage i made is 10'long 4' wide and 3' tall the cage ran me about 150 dollers.i own 2 burms 2 retics 2 anaconds 5 balls 2 red tails 1 rose 3 sav mons 1tegu lots of spiders my feeding bill runs around 500 dollers a month so just keep in mind these guys are not cheap

Will0W783 · 11-10-09, 09:49 AM

Wow, jmo. You have a full house! My feeding bill for the 40 or so smaller snakes I own runs about $200 a month. Mostly mine eat f/t and I spend about $75 a month or so on f/t, if I figure in how much I buy and how much I use each feeding. I also have a few strictly live feeders, so I spend about $100-120 a month on live mice, crickets and feeder fish. I can imagine my bill will go up more when all the babies grow up, but I don't think it will get as high as yours. Wow, do you breed them to pay for their care?

Rham_Es-Hestos · 11-10-09, 10:38 AM

First off, you guys can call me Rham. Es-Hestos is a last name.
Thanks for all this information guys. It’s really helpful, GNP, thanks so much for all your input. I don’t feel insulted in the least. I’m looking at this all as constructive criticism. All the information you guys have given me is great, to tell you the truth, your advice has swayed me as well. I still really want to own a burm, but I’m seeing that it may not be all that good to do so just yet. It will still be a while until I can consider buying any snake like I said and I can’t promise I won’t end up buying a burm but many of the other species you have talked about also sound like beautiful snakes as well as easier to own. My favorite type of burm is probable granite. I’ve only seen a few different types. How many types are there? It would be AMAZING if someone could post pictures of each type here.
Will0W, what you said about the enclosure size kinda confuses me. I’m going to guess that what you meant was that the minimum size should be 8’x2’x2’, though idea would be 8’x15’x2’. Picture this, IF I bought a burm at some point in my life, would a cage protruding two feet from a wall, 10’ wide and 8’ tall with plenty of branches and climbing stuff inside be a good enclosure? I can see being able to heat something like that a little easier. Two heat lamps on each side might be enough? I’m not sure about the whole heating the cage bit, but that’s something I can look further into later. Just wondering if a cage that size would be good enough.
JMO, how long have you owned snakes? That is a LOT of variety. What are you anacondas like? How do you interact with them? I’ve heard about owning anacondas, but they get absolutely gigantic and I can’t see someone carrying one around with them or even having one in the house.

I would think that with all those snakes, you would need to have someone with you at ALL times. Have you ever had an accident? A problem I could see with owning any snake would be feeding/interacting in the mornings when you are tired and not fully awake as it could lead to a mistake on your part. Do any of you have certain hours that you will only allow yourself to handle during?

BTW Will0W, I am in MD

Good 'N Plenty · 11-10-09, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rham_Es-Hestos

My favorite type of burm is probable granite. I’ve only seen a few different types. How many types are there? It would be AMAZING if someone could post pictures of each type here.

I couldn't agree more. I'm aiming for a female granite burm in another 5 years or so, assuming my time with my yellow conda is agreeable once she maxes out for length (or near-maxes since they never 100% stop growing).

I claim no ownership of any of these photos!

Normal: http://kgarbach.files.wordpress.com/...-molurus-3.jpg
Hypo: Hypo burm image by beardo84 on Photobucket
Albino: http://www.mcanv.com/nautic/Chester%...e%20Python.jpg
Granite: http://phenomreptiles.com/yahoo_site...082935_std.JPG
Albino Granite: http://www.highendherps.com/images/Xavier.jpg
Labyrinth: http://members.fortunecity.co.uk/tez...rinththumb.jpg
Albino Labyrinth: http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL443.../338692095.jpg (the orange here is b/c its a baby. It will yellow out like all albinos do as it gets older
Patternless aka Green: http://wb7.itrademarket.com/pdimage/...3_dsc01641.jpg
Albino Patternless: Albino patternless burmese python image by tribolonotus001 on Photobucket

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Will0W, what you said about the enclosure size kinda confuses me. I’m going to guess that what you meant was that the minimum size should be 8’x2’x2’, though idea would be 8’x15’x2’.

8x2x2 should be 8x8x2. The latter is the minimum and is what Will0w said. Just a typo I'm sure, but clarified anyways.

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IF I bought a burm at some point in my life, would a cage protruding two feet from a wall, 10’ wide and 8’ tall with plenty of branches and climbing stuff inside be a good enclosure? I can see being able to heat something like that a little easier. Two heat lamps on each side might be enough? I’m not sure about the whole heating the cage bit, but that’s something I can look further into later. Just wondering if a cage that size would be good enough.

Floorspace is ALWAYS superior to vertical space for large constrictors. You suggest a 10Lx2Wx8H, where it'd be better to have a 10Lx8Wx2H (the letters stand for length, width (aka depth) and height.

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I’ve heard about owning anacondas, but they get absolutely gigantic and I can’t see someone carrying one around with them or even having one in the house.

The difference in a female burm and a female green anaconda is a bit of girth. Other than that they top out in terms of length very similarly.
Additionally only Green Anacondas are considered in the 4 Giants. Yellow condas and Beni Condas tend to max around 13 feet in females, and Dark-spotted conda (aka Deschauensee Anaconda) I am not sure about, as there have only been 102 examples of them found in the wild.

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Do any of you have certain hours that you will only allow yourself to handle during?

Personally I handle my Ball Pythons most in the late afternoon to evening (feeding time for them is 8 or 9pm), and my yellow anaconda more during the day and less at night. A lot of it has to do with the sleep cycle the snake itself maintains. The BPs sleep all day for the most part, whereas the Yellow Conda is out and about during the day and sleeps when I do.

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BTW Will0W, I am in MD

As a Northern VA resident, I can tell you that as long as you're not out by Cumberland or western MD, that you can get to a lot of shows fairly easily. Even if you are, VA/MD/PA tend to put on a fair number of reptile shows that should be good to get out and see.

Rham_Es-Hestos · 11-10-09, 12:17 PM

Can I see some good pictures of the different anaconda varieties? Green, the only one I’ve ever heard of was and still is my favorite animal, though I could hardly consider owning one. How much does a conda differ from a burm in girth? The picture of the patternless green burm looked very similar to that of the green anaconda.

So: height vs width/length à Win= width/length. Got it.
I’m seeing that a shed could be considered a great enclosure for any snake, aye? I’m picturing having a shed attached to a house with a heat vent in it and possibly a few heat lamps, but the shed could basically be an entirely new environment with plants and even dirt perhaps with rocks to climb on and sub-bathe in during the summer (I could even install a skylite for just that purpose). Then I could save a few feet in the front of the shed for a fridge in which to keep the feeders. Sounds like an amazing setup, at least, the way I picture it looks good. The snake could have almost the entire area to roam around in and with the proper insulation and heating, it would be fine outside the house during winter.

When I get my license, I will most definitely check out a few of these reptile shows, and drag my friend along with me who will most likely be dorming with me during and after college. If I get accepted, I will be going to Virginia Tech, any good shows near there?

Will0W783 · 11-10-09, 08:16 PM

Rham, if you're in MD, the Havre de Grace, MD show is a good one. There is also a great one in Richmond, VA if you're down towards the lower end of MD. BTW, I go to the Havre de Grace show every month because it's only an hour away from my house. If you want to go next time, perhaps I can meet you.

Good 'N Plenty · 11-10-09, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rham_Es-Hestos

Can I see some good pictures of the different anaconda varieties? Green, the only one I’ve ever heard of was and still is my favorite animal, though I could hardly consider owning one.

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How much does a conda differ from a burm in girth? The picture of the patternless green burm looked very similar to that of the green anaconda.

Anacondas have such a strikingly unique head, that with some time just googling pictures, you'll see theres no mistaking them for anything else. The difference in girth is as individual as the snakes, but condas will typically be a bit bigger around. That's about as accurate as I can be, sorry! Hard to get stats on girth for the big 4.

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I’m seeing that a shed could be considered a great enclosure for any snake, aye? I’m picturing having a shed attached to a house with a heat vent in it and possibly a few heat lamps, but the shed could basically be an entirely new environment with plants and even dirt perhaps with rocks to climb on and sub-bathe in during the summer (I could even install a skylite for just that purpose). Then I could save a few feet in the front of the shed for a fridge in which to keep the feeders. Sounds like an amazing setup, at least, the way I picture it looks good. The snake could have almost the entire area to roam around in and with the proper insulation and heating, it would be fine outside the house during winter.

'Shed' is a loose and ambiguous term. Make no mistake, any addition or small building that is used soley to house snakes should be as well made if not even more sealed up than a house. Within the snake building, humidity and heat need to be maintained, and you should always take cleaning into account.

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When I get my license, I will most definitely check out a few of these reptile shows, and drag my friend along with me who will most likely be dorming with me during and after college. If I get accepted, I will be going to Virginia Tech, any good shows near there?

I'm up at Amherst College (not UMass), but live in northern VA. Wahoo Wah! UVA all the way!