Natural occurring intergrade

SCReptiles · 07-26-05, 12:19 AM

This one was found over in Jackson County, AL. It has the head some color of the black/grey rat snake, but the montly back pattern of a corn snake. Also there is visible red mixed in the grey on the sides and back. I believe this to be a rat corn cross. It was collected from the wild two weeks ago. It dropped 11 eggs. Looking forward to seeing the babies, the father could have been a rat or a corn…we have no way to know. I have her in my collection now and looking forward to seeing her after a shed. I think the red will show thru even more after a captive shed.

Invictus · 07-26-05, 10:17 AM

Wow, finally some proof that hybrids DO occur naturally. Keep us posted Chuck, I'd love to see what the babies look like.

shaggybill · 07-31-05, 02:53 PM

Chuck, I found a DOR similar to that just north of Rome, GA a few weeks ago. It had obviously been purposely killed, looking like someone had peeled out on its back. Heres a picture of it, edited. It was probably a little over 4 ft in length.

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/507948/81620654-IMG_2306.jpg' >

SCReptiles · 08-02-05, 11:19 PM

hey man, what were you doing in Rome? that is only 1/2 hour from me. can't tell much from your pic...i need to get some of the underside of this one...the bottom looks 100% like corn.

Katt · 08-03-05, 10:36 PM

I'm not seeing anything particularly "corny" about that black rat. Quite a few retain lots of pattern, which is similar to corn patterning, especially those in the Kentucky area. The belly pattern is checked just like a corn too. There is natural red in black rats, otherwise the albinos wouldn't be so pink/red!

shaggybill · 08-03-05, 10:43 PM

I have seen black rats in extreme southwest Illinois that had insane amounts of red in them, like this one.

<img src='http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-11/507948/14188347-rs2.jpg' >

I was always told that blacks and greys didnt integrade. Is this false? That one that Chuck posted, and my first one look like they are integrades...

thunder · 08-04-05, 01:22 PM

I'm not saying that it's not a hybrid, but if I'd caught it, never would have occured to me that it might be a hybrid. Growing up in IL, I caught black rats all the time, and plenty of them had a more defined pattern and/or a little red. There aren't really any other Pantherophis where I lived, so they were not intergrades.

dannyc · 08-31-05, 01:59 PM

I have a w/c black rat. I live in VA and I've never seen one with anything other than black and a little white around scales. The juvi will show a pattern that lookes somular to a corn but just black and grey. I have two corns and was thinking about attempting to cross them, depending on the sex of the black rat. I would prefer it to be female so I can use my candy cane male when he's old enough. He's only about 1 1/2 now. The rat is 3.5 - 4 feet and has a great temperment and eats like a garbage disposal

I haven't had it sexed yet but some people say they can tell the sex by the tail length. Can someone remind me if it's the males or the females that have the longer tails?

kronic2005 · 08-31-05, 03:35 PM

Chuck, even just by looking at the scales on your find. you can tell it has to be half cornsnake or full cornsnake, the way the body is shaped and how the scales look and define the snake spell out C-O-R-N. Post pics of the babies when u get a chance. I'd like to see the offspring.[edit] it looks to me as if it has the headshape of rat though

Katt · 09-01-05, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronic2005

Chuck, even just by looking at the scales on your find. you can tell it has to be half cornsnake or full cornsnake, the way the body is shaped and how the scales look and define the snake spell out C-O-R-N. Post pics of the babies when u get a chance. I'd like to see the offspring.[edit] it looks to me as if it has the headshape of rat though

Not a very descriptive answer as to why it looks corn. What do you see in the scales? Number? Shape? Full corn? There's no possible way that snake is 100% corn.

Keep in mind that there are actually three species of black rat. Not all black rats are the same, but are instead the melanistic versions of the species more southern to them. There are western, central, and eastern ratsnakes, black rats are simply the most northern melanistic snakes. I believe reptiles magazine did an article on how obsoleta has been split into three species. And a paper done on black rat mRNA that proves they are simply melanistic, and not a different sub-species from the other rats.

kronic2005 · 09-01-05, 11:55 AM

Im not that familiar with black rats or anything technical about them. Im just saying from looking at previous pictures that have been post of WC and CB black rats and from WC and CB corns it looks like a corn snake to me, Rat snakes have what appears to be smoother scales without that rough look to them that corn snakes appear to have. I may be wrong or whatnot, but im just stating my opinion. And i never said it was 100% corn, im saying if it is a hybrid its got corn in it(in my opinion anyways).

dannyc · 09-01-05, 12:07 PM

Ok can we clear one thing up. "Corn" snakes are rat snakes. They are sometimes referred to as red rat snakes. They are different sub species hence Elaphe Guttata Guttata, where as the black rat is Elaphe obsoleta obsoleta. I don't know if they will interbreed in nature but they have been crossed in captivity.

Cloudkicker · 09-01-05, 07:34 PM

Alright, and I clear up another thing. Corn snakes and black rats are now classified as pantherophis, not elaphe. I don't fully understand why that change was made, but it was. Cheers,
-Andrew-

LdyDrgn · 09-02-05, 11:58 AM

The change was made to 'distinguish' North American ratsnakes from EuroAsian ratsnakes.

And yes, most of the black ratsnakes here in KY do retain quite a bit of their pattern and have some color. The idea has been tossed around that they are an intergrade between greys and blacks, but there is no data to back that up as of yet. Those in far eastern KY are much darker, nearly solid black.

dannyc · 09-02-05, 12:38 PM

Yep the nearly solid black is what we have here in VA. I've had a w/c adult for about 3 months and it makes a great pet. Active day and night, hasn't tried to bite (yet) and eats anytime you offer it something. I swear it was about 3.5' when I caught it but it's 4' now. I've been feeding it 2 - f/t rat fuzzies every 5 days. I expect it could eat 3 or 4 but I don't really think it needs that much in captivity. It's in a 4'x3'x4' high enclosure with a limb for climbing.

Here it's soakinig in his water bowl. The red you see is just a reflection of the infrared light I use for heat. It has no color just black and some white around scales. I noticed last night when handling him, if you look real close you can see some of his juvi pattern, but just barely.