Pet Store Balls

[akane]

Even if you ignore any moral standing Petco and Petsmart along with a few other major chains tend to only buy from very large breeding companies that often have a bad track record for their husbandry and health. Stores often will not take animals from local breeders due to being under contracts and may even require the person turning over an animal to pay them to take it and then "adopt" it out for a fee to end up with basically free money so it's pretty certain nothing in their standard displays are from a local or specialized breeder. I will buy from the chain pet stores sometimes because I lack sources but I would not assume anything with it's health except that there's a good chance it's been exposed to things and possibly stressed in it's life. I'd basically treat it as a rescue or wild caught when it comes to potential parasites, infections, poor feeding periods at points in it's life, and past shedding issues even if that's been sorted out now.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by akane

Even if you ignore any moral standing Petco and Petsmart along with a few other major chains tend to only buy from very large breeding companies that often have a bad track record for their husbandry and health. Stores often will not take animals from local breeders due to being under contracts and may even require the person turning over an animal to pay them to take it and then "adopt" it out for a fee to end up with basically free money so it's pretty certain nothing in their standard displays are from a local or specialized breeder. I will buy from the chain pet stores sometimes because I lack sources but I would not assume anything with it's health except that there's a good chance it's been exposed to things and possibly stressed in it's life. I'd basically treat it as a rescue or wild caught when it comes to potential parasites, infections, poor feeding periods at points in it's life, and past shedding issues even if that's been sorted out now.

You clearly missed my post where I explained, in detail, how large chains acquire their animals. It's a feeder system and it certainly starts at the "small breeder".

I know it's true in Canada and in the US. The only difference is I don't know the major players in the US as well as I know them here.

[Scubadiver59]

The new addition is at home.

Didn't get a weight yet, but length is about 30in, the full length of the 20gal tank I have it in.

Here are some preliminary (substandard) pics..


Quarantine Rack


Layed out investigating


Looking for the (fire) escape route...

They were still feeding it pinkies, multiple pinkies, but I bought some mice more to the correct size. I'll try feeding it in a few days, it was due to eat today, after it settles in.

A really docile snake...I like that already!

[GyGbeetle]

Originally Posted by akane

Even if you ignore any moral standing Petco and Petsmart along with a few other major chains tend to only buy from very large breeding companies that often have a bad track record for their husbandry and health. Stores often will not take animals from local breeders due to being under contracts and may even require the person turning over an animal to pay them to take it and then "adopt" it out for a fee to end up with basically free money so it's pretty certain nothing in their standard displays are from a local or specialized breeder. I will buy from the chain pet stores sometimes because I lack sources but I would not assume anything with it's health except that there's a good chance it's been exposed to things and possibly stressed in it's life. I'd basically treat it as a rescue or wild caught when it comes to potential parasites, infections, poor feeding periods at points in it's life, and past shedding issues even if that's been sorted out now.

this has been my experience with these large chains. Even when the chain stores purchase from large breeders, the breeders are often not reputable, and have poor husbandry, which is why I always stress, especially here in the states, to have a vet appointment for all new reptiles purchased from places like Petco and Petsmart. Been around this bend too many times to see it not end well.

I'm glad your purchase went well, Scuba, and she looks breathtaking. Just keep a close watch on her over the coming weeks, and make sure you lengthen your quarantine to what your normal protocol may be. I'd recommend 90 days, but the decision ultimately is up to you.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by GyGbeetle

this has been my experience with these large chains. Even when the chain stores purchase from large breeders, the breeders are often not reputable, and have poor husbandry, which is why I always stress, especially here in the states, to have a vet appointment for all new reptiles purchased from places like Petco and Petsmart. Been around this bend too many times to see it not end well.

I'm glad your purchase went well, Scuba, and she looks breathtaking. Just keep a close watch on her over the coming weeks, and make sure you lengthen your quarantine to what your normal protocol may be. I'd recommend 90 days, but the decision ultimately is up to you.

Which large scale breeders do you know producing enough to supply the chain pet stores? I know most of the large breeders in the States of ball pythons so I'm curious so I can compare notes.

EDIT: Actually, you never answered on WHY you recommend these vet appointments and what "may be lurking" as per your own words. Sounds like you're instilling fear without knowing exactly what you should be afraid of.

[Scubadiver59]

Don't know if they'll give me that answer but I can always ask.

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Which large scale breeders do you know producing enough to supply the chain pet stores? I know most of the large breeders in the States of ball pythons so I'm curious so I can compare notes.

Well, the initial examination revealed some signs of excess rubbing on the back along one or two spots on the spine, but nothing too serious that will probably disappear after the first shed. The snake, sex unknown, was very placid when being handled, and following her initial foray in the new surroundings, settled in for the night atop the cold hide.

The second evening, I decided to see if it would eat, so I warmed up the (medium) mouse and dangled it in front of the hot hide. At first, the snake pulled back inside the opening, but after two tries of setting the mouse on the paper, and pulling it away from the opening, the snake struck, strangled the poor dead mouse to death, and then I left it alone to ingest. When I went back later, it was back in the hot hide, looking out at me, the mouse nowhere to be found. Mission success, I guess.

I'll try to get a handling session in later this week. I added some sphagnum to it's enclosure to get the humidity above 50%, which it did, and it was interesting to watch the snake check out the new "thing" in its domain. My Herpstat-2 is due in mid-week so I'm running off a Zilla rheostat controller which I hate due to the up/down temperature changes...never again.

Originally Posted by GyGbeetle

this has been my experience with these large chains. Even when the chain stores purchase from large breeders, the breeders are often not reputable, and have poor husbandry, which is why I always stress, especially here in the states, to have a vet appointment for all new reptiles purchased from places like Petco and Petsmart. Been around this bend too many times to see it not end well.

I'm glad your purchase went well, Scuba, and she looks breathtaking. Just keep a close watch on her over the coming weeks, and make sure you lengthen your quarantine to what your normal protocol may be. I'd recommend 90 days, but the decision ultimately is up to you.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by GyGbeetle

Not entirely sure of the specifics about balls, but here is an article I had recently found regarding these "reputable large reptile breeders" that have contracts with Petco and Petsmart alike:

https://www.thedodo.com/petsmart-sup...633352619.html

So you just take a simple video by PETA no less as pure fact without follow up research? You might want to considering this video has been circulating for awhile and PETA is known for staging videos. In this case they got someone hired as a employee and they staged shots for this specific video. Might want to look into.

Also you need to stop using the term "large breeder" for everyone. Reptiles by Mack may breed some animals but they also are a wholesaler. They would buy from someone like me or my other breeder friends for the quantity they need and turn around sell it to the pet stores. You can say what you want but I know this is fact. I know enough people in the States to know they WHOLESALE most of their lower end animals either directly to pet stores/chain stores or someone who holds the contract.

You can say what you want about corporations but I don't think you understand how they actually work/profit from this. It's all a chain. Wholesalers can't breed enough/don't have enough space so they source from smaller breeders with good standards for a fair wholesale price (I sell normals for $10 - $15) and then the pet store takes them for $15 - $25) and the price goes up depending on the morph.

Petco Issues Official Statement Regarding Iguana Found in Dumpster Behind Wichita Falls Store

I cannot or will not defend this story. It's cruel and inhumane and I hope it was an isolated incidence.

There are a multitude of other articles online regarding their treatment of these animals, but the bottom line isn't that they don't know how to handle the animals. Most of these animals are coming in sick from the breeders, not getting sick after staying in the store for "x" amount of weeks. I think that's the biggest issue with the chain stores here in the US. It's not a regional issue; it's a nationwide issue.

Petco has been scrutinized in the past for their maltreatment of their mammals as well, being cited at particular localities in the 80s for animal cruelty. I'm not as familiar with Petsmart, but it stands to reason, given they are for-profit, their corporate policies are similar.

As you say, "particular localities", which means they are isolated to those places. Animals suffer in some cases, absolutely and I'll acknowledge and shun each case of it but we can't paint everyone with a single brush. Especially when you're quoting information from the EIGHTIES! Nearly 3 decades ago...THIRTY YEARS AGO! Things have come a long way.

The argument that these large chain stores will first purchase from local breeders is a fallacy. There is no profit for purchasing from a local breeder, when the prices often times are not within their margins. they have contracts with large scale breeders....[/QUOTE]

It clearly isn't a fallacy considering I do it and others do as well. There certainly is profit. Know how? When animals are sick and dying and in poor health a few things happen.

1. They die in transit or whatever. They don't even make it for sale so because it's instantly dead so the company loses tons of money on these.
2. Sick and dying don't look good to the customer and they sit forever so they lose money by having space taken up by an animal that isn't moving so they have to steeply discount in hopes to recoup some cost but the profit is already gone.
3. The animal dies at the new home fairly quickly. Guess who gets store credit, replacement or refund? I don't know all stores that do this but it'll hurt the bottom line.

You would be correct closer to the 80's and 90's. I worked in pet stores in the early 2000's and there were some issues but they have come a long way and a lot has to do with the captive breeding of basic species like the ball python.

Why would a company spend $10 on importing gross, mite infested, tick infested babies when they can spend $20 on an animal that they can almost guarantee profit out of it?

My last point is, you still haven't told me what may be lurking and what needs to be uncovered at a vet visit.

Originally Posted by Scubadiver59

Don't know if they'll give me that answer but I can always ask.



Well, the initial examination revealed some signs of excess rubbing on the back along one or two spots on the spine, but nothing too serious that will probably disappear after the first shed. The snake, sex unknown, was very placid when being handled, and following her initial foray in the new surroundings, settled in for the night atop the cold hide.

The second evening, I decided to see if it would eat, so I warmed up the (medium) mouse and dangled it in front of the hot hide. At first, the snake pulled back inside the opening, but after two tries of setting the mouse on the paper, and pulling it away from the opening, the snake struck, strangled the poor dead mouse to death, and then I left it alone to ingest. When I went back later, it was back in the hot hide, looking out at me, the mouse nowhere to be found. Mission success, I guess.

I'll try to get a handling session in later this week. I added some sphagnum to it's enclosure to get the humidity above 50%, which it did, and it was interesting to watch the snake check out the new "thing" in its domain. My Herpstat-2 is due in mid-week so I'm running off a Zilla rheostat controller which I hate due to the up/down temperature changes...never again.

A feeding snake so soon from getting it home is a fantastic sign! Ball pythons are timid feeders when in a new place and for it to eat should tell you that you've done a good job ensuring it feels secure. Well done.

[harlequinnz]

I say go for it. Especially with your soft spot! It'll be satisfying when you get to make sure it's taken care of correctly because pet store reptiles.. Poor fellas