sand substrate

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by Minkness

I can't argue it's age, but getting 1 pinky a WEEK plus how many insects? Looks a bit thin to me. I feed insects twice a week only and my 7 year old is thicker. And what does having a full tail have to do with anything? Just means he hasn't dropped it.

He's 21, virtually blind and has stopped eating as much now, 3 years ago he was much thicker, and better built, and eatinh regularly. Fuzzy mice are not pinkies haha.
I've been told that stressed geckos drop their tails and I feel if sand was so bad it would have dropped its tail from stress? Please correct me if i'm wrong. And yes, my 5-8 year old female is much more toned than this guy but if you look at a healthy 90 year old human vs a healthy 26 year old human you'll see a big difference.

[Minkness]

You have a point on the age and tone, and I'm sorry, I don't know why I kept saying pinky instead of fuzzy. Still, from the research I did on leo diets, those shouldn't be offered more than once a month. But who am I to argue with a 21 year old leo? Lol

Also, you are kinda wrong on the dropped tail. It's not just 'stress' it is 'immediately impactful stress' such as being grabbed, jerked, pulled by the tail, feeling trapped in an 'omg I'm gunna get eaten!' Kind of panic.

A low level impact stress like poor husbandry will not affect the dropping of a tail in the slightest. So the fact he's 21 and still has a tail just means he's laid back and probably handled correctly. =)

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by akane

Like I feared this thread blew up into other species. I am talking about rosy and maybe a sand boa in the future. The humidity needs to be low. I'm in Iowa. The humidity of our air before adding a water dish or substrate with any moisture is plenty. I might pull the water dish and only give periodically like some do but that is another set of research. I am also not talking about filling up a tank with a ton of sand and letting it sit for months or for the snake to build tunnels. I mean maybe 2" with a lot of rock structure, someone did mention pvc pipe partially buried, for hiding and crawling on instead of making self burrows. Then strip it out frequently, disinfect, and replace with new. I also am no longer talking about reptile sand due to the clumping but fine grain quartz or "play sand". Play sand here tends to be dirty, nasty stuff I have to rinse and rinse and rinse though. I rarely use it for anything. I use the small grain quartz for my aquariums because it is smaller, more uniform, cleaner, less dusty, and softer against the scaleless bottom feeder fish or inverts than other options. I have not determined yet if calcium based sand is an increase in problems or if it's just the clumping nature again of the versions sold for reptiles. There are other sterile sources for a calcium based sand.

I have read articles and posts by people who have used only sand for a decade or more trying to find what they might be doing differently from those who quote problems. I have also talked to some doing bioactive and will likely go to that in the future. I was just looking for something simple and natural looking to fill in around the rock structures and water dish instead of plain newspaper layers which allow no digging at all or aspen. I also looked into moss and coir blocks but there were complaints of them being dusty and the snakes having to be wiped off when handled because of the low humidity of a rosy or sand boa enclosure. I also came across someone saying it works fine for them so long as they remove the snake for feeding. The prospect of a feeding bin has been brought up to me before.

I thought about just laying natural stone tile and being able to wipe it down and disinfect but the constant mention of their desire to dig is why I wanted to put enough in for her to nose around while I continue researching.

If you're using sand, any and all sources of water need to remain in the enclosure. Even sand boas and rosy boas can become severely dehydrated on sand if you aren't careful. All animals should have constant access to drinking water. It's part of their basic needs, and shouldn't harm them. A water dish really doesn't add all that much humidity. Just be sure to get an untippable dish (splayed at the bottom or heavy enough they can't tip it).

Calcium is toxic. The calcium carbonate used to make it can be deadly when ingested and a respiratory irritant.

Originally Posted by Minkness

I can't argue it's age, but getting 1 pinky a WEEK plus how many insects? Looks a bit thin to me. I feed insects twice a week only and my 7 year old is thicker. And what does having a full tail have to do with anything? Just means he hasn't dropped it.

Yes it's definitely thin but at 21 years it's probably at the end of its life, explaining its less than adequate body tone.

I've also seen plenty of leopard geckos kept in terrible conditions on the verge of death that have not dropped their tails, so I also have little faith in that being a sign of being fine on sand (in and of itself).



Further on my points on sand, is that when sand is advertised in pet stores as this great substrate. "Just get this tank, some sand, a water dish, and this heat lamp and you're set!" 99.99% of keepers will be keeping their reptiles in this way. The margin for error on sand is much greater than it is with aspen, EcoEarth, or cypress mulch (again, this topic is on snakes not lizards so this is where my points are addressed at).

I can wet my EcoEarth and leave for an entire week and not have any danger of my snakes becoming dehydrated or even of their water coming anywhere close to drying out. I've done it several times. At most, I'd have someone double check temps and thermostats to make sure their temps are up to par, but beyond one weekly or twice monthly maintenance I don't have to do anything.

In my aspen set ups, I literally don't do anything. Give them fresh water every other day, and that's it. No spraying, no overly large bowls. My garters are well hydrated and shed perfect every time.

Imo, when a substrate requires extensive knowledge to get right, that substrate is a husbandry error. You "experts" can keep to the sand, but I'd really hesitate advocating it or encouraging it for someone not experienced. The margin for error is very large with sand, and very small with the most common substrates. The most you're looking at is some bad sheds and dehydration with aspen/EE/mulch, that takes very little knowledge to correct. That's all I'm going to say on the subject now. You can keep your sand but be mindful of new keepers and stress all the extra steps they'll need to take. I'm not really convinced it's a husbandry issue but I'll leave it at that.

[sirtalis]

Ok well I think we've both raised good points, for now I'm gonna drop this argument, to the op definitely sorry about the major thread highjack

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by Minkness

You have a point on the age and tone, and I'm sorry, I don't know why I kept saying pinky instead of fuzzy. Still, from the research I did on leo diets, those shouldn't be offered more than once a month. But who am I to argue with a 21 year old leo? Lol

Also, you are kinda wrong on the dropped tail. It's not just 'stress' it is 'immediately impactful stress' such as being grabbed, jerked, pulled by the tail, feeling trapped in an 'omg I'm gunna get eaten!' Kind of panic.

A low level impact stress like poor husbandry will not affect the dropping of a tail in the slightest. So the fact he's 21 and still has a tail just means he's laid back and probably handled correctly. =)

Well that clears a few things up haha and with the mice, I feed one every other month, so Im not condoning it but if it worked for my friend who am I to argue

[Minkness]

Yeah. He may have had a special case in that his leo had a higher metabolism than most. A small rodent once every month or two isn't bad, and in some cases suggested (if your leos will take them. I have tried, and none of mine are remotely interested). One of those things that are best in moderation. Like wax worms! Super fatty, no nutritional value, and addictive. But not 'bad' wjen used as a treat. =)

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by Minkness

Yeah. He may have had a special case in that his leo had a higher metabolism than most. A small rodent once every month or two isn't bad, and in some cases suggested (if your leos will take them. I have tried, and none of mine are remotely interested). One of those things that are best in moderation. Like wax worms! Super fatty, no nutritional value, and addictive. But not 'bad' when used as a treat. =)

exactly, and even then, only one of my geckos will eat mice. My other two rarely show interest and honestly there isn't really a point in feeding rodents unless you want bigger geckos. Usually I stick to a 50% roach/crickets, 25% various worms (mealworms/superworms) 12.5% waxworms, earth worms, hornworms, and 12.5% (other) what I have noticed is that after one of my females lays eggs they usually need to put on a bit of weight and mice are good to really boost their weight

[chairman]

Originally Posted by akane

How smooth do particles need to be including differences in sizes?

I believe that this is the sand that I have used:

Quikrete 50 lb. All-Purpose Sand 115251 at The Home Depot - Mobile

The particles don't have to be smooth, being rough is what provides the structure and traction. Size-wise, really the only things to worry about are dust (which is why you wash the sand before using it) and rocks small enough to be swallowed but too large to pass. If you are more tempted to call it gravel than sand then the pieces are too big.

[sirtalis]

Originally Posted by chairman

I believe that this is the sand that I have used:

Quikrete 50 lb. All-Purpose Sand 115251 at The Home Depot - Mobile

The particles don't have to be smooth, being rough is what provides the structure and traction. Size-wise, really the only things to worry about are dust (which is why you wash the sand before using it) and rocks small enough to be swallowed but too large to pass. If you are more tempted to call it gravel than sand then the pieces are too big.

That's what I use, on geckos currently and my Kenyan sand boa years back

[akane]

After talking to the bioactive group and reading some desert bioactive enclosures I used 1 part fully composted palm, 2 parts quartz sand, and .25 part crushed coral for larger particles. This is intended to be only a top layer. If I turn it into bioactive it looks like the lower layers need to be richer and moister to keep the insects and microbes alive. I have plans for that if I attempt it. I'm sure some will not agree but this is my opinion based on what my research turned up. I saw recipes up to 70% sand but these did not hold tunnels and some went to adding clay so mine is closer to 60% sand.



There's a heat lamp pointed at the rock, a UTH still under the right front corner but dunno how much it will help and hides are not finished.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Sounds like a good bedding to me! Good luck with your full bio if/when you go that route. Bioactive is something I want to eventually try, but I'm not sure how easy it is.

[chairman]

That looks like a nice sandy soil. Allow the bottom 1/4" to stay moist, not wet, and you should be fine.

[sirtalis]

Looks great man, im sure your boa will enjoy that enclosure

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

Sounds like a good bedding to me! Good luck with your full bio if/when you go that route. Bioactive is something I want to eventually try, but I'm not sure how easy it is.

Bioactive in ams of itself is dead easy. Substrates plus clean up crew and plants = bioactive.

The trickier bit is getting the mix right for a specific species.

I'm going to try it with my boa and carpet but I think I'd struggle on the scale of say a retic.

That said worse case scenario is you have to continue spot cleaning and your plants die. It's very difficult to do ham to your animal so long as you're aware of the basic husbandry requirements which you are.

To the op-looks great. Smashing set up!

[akane]

Bioactive is a bit extra challenging in a desert tank because there aren't many critters that survive being dry. In a desert it also gets cooler and moister the deeper you go so top watering and UTH are the opposite of a natural ecosystem. Maintaining a full bioactive desert gets a little more complicated. I debated if I could just add mealworms to the current setup because you can keep mealworms in totally dry bedding if you just give them something moist like a slice of potato on thin plastic against the substrate and a snake is unlikely to go for a cold, damp potato chunk. I don't have to worry about lizard trying to eat various things. A container of mealworms is about what's left of this month's animal budget already lol