Wild caught for pet shops, a tragedy?

limey · 06-22-12, 09:18 AM

This en-masse catching of wild hatchlings for the pet trade is kind of sad isn't it?

I just know from volunteering in various worldwide conservation efforts over the years that human numbers are skyrocketing while most others species' numbers are dwindling...

What's your opinion of "wild caught"?

marvelfreak · 06-22-12, 09:22 AM

I would never buy wild caught.

StudentoReptile · 06-22-12, 09:58 AM

[Looking around for the popcorn-eating emoticon, waiting for the debate to begin]
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It's easy to have that mentality, and I'm not necessarily knocking the philosophy behind it. After all, who isn't for conservation, right?

But realistically, its not a very cut-and-dry issue, when you consider really how commonly-kept herps are in the pet trade: Chinese water dragons, savannah monitors, African fat-tailed geckos, tokay geckos, blue-tongued skinks, uromastyx, Russian tortoises, and of course, baby ball pythons, just to mention a few.

Its nice that people make the decision to "never buy WC" but when you think about, that really limits your options for expanding your collection, especially if you're on a budget. How many people you know breed savannah monitors in captivity? tokay geckos? Russian tortoises? I know there are some, but CBB animals are often double the price you'd pay for a WC one. A lot of newbies are either unwilling to pony up the extra dough or more often than not, are completely unaware CBB is even an option. The latter, I'm mainly referring to the average Jill or Joe who walks into Petco and sees a savannah monitor or water dragon. They may not even have a clue of the submerged iceberg they're standing on that represents the captive reptile industry.

A lot of animals are still only available (mostly) through wildcuaght collection and importation because they are either very difficult to reproduce, or there is marketability in reproducing them in captivity. For example, for most dealers, it is cheaper to order a crate load of WC tokay geckos than go to the effort of breeding the things. I'm not saying its right; I'm merely pointing out the reality of the situation.

In short, if the tides are really going to turn, you're going to have to convince every single person out there remotely interested in keeping herps to only buy from captive bred stock. Personally, I feel this is unrealistic and futile goal.

StudentoReptile · 06-22-12, 10:02 AM

What I DO have a problem with is the quote-unquote "trash" species that are overcollected and sold that most people are ill-equiped to keep. Last year, I saw an ad for someone selling crowned snakes by the lot. For those unfamiliar, crowned snakes are tiny little worm-like snakes here in North America that hardy get larger than a pencil. Their natural diet is centipedes. This guy was peddling these drab brown tiny snakes, claiming they were the cheapest snake you could ever get and that they make great pets. I mean, how is the average person gonna feed this snake? Who has a ready supply of centipedes?

This was on Fauna, BTW.

limey · 06-22-12, 10:08 AM

Yeah. I think you have a point there. And no one person can change the world's opinion - it's too mammoth a task.

But I also think (and I'm sure many of you would agree with me) that from my observations, humans tend to be a very self-serving species. And if we don't make much needed changes, then in the long run (though perhaps not in our lifetime) the homosapiens species is doomed.

MoreliAddict · 06-22-12, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by limey

Yeah. I think you have a point there. And no one person can change the world's opinion - it's too mammoth a task.

But I also think (and I'm sure many of you would agree with me) that from my observations, humans tend to be a very self-serving species. And if we don't make much needed changes, then in the long run (though perhaps not in our lifetime) the homosapiens species is doomed.

In the long-run the sun will burn out and all species on Earth which weren't able to build rockets are doomed. So relatively speaking "the homo-sapiens species" is doing alright...

stevenrudge · 06-22-12, 11:50 AM

The wild caught v captive bred argument is bogus really,as everything we now have in captivity was bred from W/C stock,so for us to get pious about W/C is a not really on,having said that most of the pythons and Boas were originally caught for the skin trade with the reptile or pet trade as a by-product so you could say that if we did not have them they were died,l do agree that with your story about mass importing very cheap reps with a highly specialised food intake is very irresponsible and could be stopped,but l think there still is a case for importing reps responsibly
your thoughts

MDT · 06-22-12, 11:57 AM

"back in the day"......wild caught used to be all we could really find. I remember buying a wc Texas Indigo about 30 yrs ago. Completely parasite ridden, and despite the vets attempts, it died about 3 wks later (not much help w regard to exotic veterinarians at that time either).

There are so many captive bred options now wild caught is not even on my radar. I'm grateful to the "pioneers" who have successfully bred these wild caught stocks into a sustainable and plentiful source.

Ymmv

stevenrudge · 06-22-12, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDT

"back in the day"......wild caught used to be all we could really find. I remember buying a wc Texas Indigo about 30 yrs ago. Completely parasite ridden, and despite the vets attempts, it died about 3 wks later (not much help w regard to exotic veterinarians at that time either).

There are so many captive bred options now wild caught is not even on my radar. I'm grateful to the "pioneers" who have successfully bred these wild caught stocks into a sustainable and plentiful source.

Ymmv

l agree totally,back then it was 70-30% the rep would die,but the hobby had to start somewhere,the problem we have now is that the (colour morphers) have ruined most of the true lines,so that there are no pure lines that breed true, plus all the intergades,l still think that we still need small scale imports,l'm not talking about large scale mass importing of cheap disposable reps,on that l agree with you

UwabamiReptiles · 06-22-12, 12:30 PM

I think there is a place for the wild caught animals in the hobby. It is definitely over done for a boat load of species out there. I personally feel that wild caught animals should be used to establish captive stock so the species doesn't have to get to the point of being over collected.

I do realize that its always going to happen because people will always buy the cheaper animal (new people to the hobby anyway). Maybe it wouldn't be a horrible idea to put some stricter regulations on numbers imported, etc. Like do we really need to bring in thousands of baby ball pythons every year? Are there not enough breeders of ball pythons to cover the needs of everybody that wants a ball python? At the same time, I want to get a couple of species into my collection eventually that I know will have to be wild caught. I would consider that so I could establish captive stock so wild caught individuals wouldn't continue to get collected.

At the end of the day, all of are animals started in the wild and someone collected them and bred them. Like mentioned above, its not a cut and dry issue.

exwizard · 06-22-12, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

[Looking around for the popcorn-eating emoticon, waiting for the debate to begin]
-----

It's easy to have that mentality, and I'm not necessarily knocking the philosophy behind it. After all, who isn't for conservation, right? Conservation is not my reason to never do wild cauht. CBB gernerally is healthier all the way around.

But realistically, its not a very cut-and-dry issue, when you consider really how commonly-kept herps are in the pet trade: Chinese water dragons, savannah monitors, African fat-tailed geckos, tokay geckos, blue-tongued skinks, uromastyx, Russian tortoises, and of course, baby ball pythons, just to mention a few. Its nice that people make the decision to "never buy WC" but when you think about, that really limits your options for expanding your collection, especially if you're on a budget. How many people you know breed savannah monitors in captivity? tokay geckos? Russian tortoises? I know there are some, but CBB animals are often double the price you'd pay for a WC one. A lot of newbies are either unwilling to pony up the extra dough or more often than not, are completely unaware CBB is even an option. The latter, I'm mainly referring to the average Jill or Joe who walks into Petco and sees a savannah monitor or water dragon. They may not even have a clue of the submerged iceberg they're standing on that represents the captive reptile industry. I keep none of those so it doesnt change my opinion in the least. All of my snakes are cbb and I will always be resolved to never do wild caught.

A lot of animals are still only available (mostly) through wildcuaght collection and importation because they are either very difficult to reproduce, or there is marketability in reproducing them in captivity. These animals are not for me. For example, for most dealers, it is cheaper to order a crate load of WC tokay geckos than go to the effort of breeding the things. I'm not saying its right; I'm merely pointing out the reality of the situation. I agree that reality exists but again, these animals are not for me. My choice.

In short, if the tides are really going to turn, you're going to have to convince every single person out there remotely interested in keeping herps to only buy from captive bred stock. Personally, I feel this is unrealistic and futile goal. Im not out to convince the world and Im not desirous of any debate. Im just here expressing my opinion and thats as far as it goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UwabamiReptiles

I think there is a place for the wild caught animals in the hobby. It is definitely over done for a boat load of species out there. I personally feel that wild caught animals should be used to establish captive stock so the species doesn't have to get to the point of being over collected. I agree with this. I also think that the cbb reptiles out there got their start generations back from wild caught but now that there are cbb stock to choose from, its better to stick with that.

I do realize that its always going to happen because people will always buy the cheaper animal (new people to the hobby anyway). Maybe it wouldn't be a horrible idea to put some stricter regulations on numbers imported, etc. Like do we really need to bring in thousands of baby ball pythons every year? Not a good enough reason for more regs. The last thing we need is the government to get more involved with even more restrictions. Are there not enough breeders of ball pythons to cover the needs of everybody that wants a ball python? Yes there are. At the same time, I want to get a couple of species into my collection eventually that I know will have to be wild caught. I would consider that so I could establish captive stock so wild caught individuals wouldn't continue to get collected. This will continue the demand for more wild caught animals.

At the end of the day, all of are animals started in the wild and someone collected them and bred them. Agreed and the above mentioned point thats been made applies here as well. Like mentioned above, its not a cut and dry issue. It is for me. No wild caught for me, not now, not ever.

Again, this is just my 2c worth. My opinions and not applicable as fact. This is just what I think about this.

jaleely · 06-22-12, 08:12 PM

I do not, and will not buy wild caught. If you want an animal, pony up the money to buy a captive bred...if you can't afford that, you shouldn't be buying it anyway. Go rescue something...heck snakes are TEN dollars at the pound here in my county.
Buying wild caught to "expand your collection" is selfish. Taking the animal from the wild is selfish. If it's bred in captivity it doesn't know what it's missing.

Not to mention it seems like a lot of people that worry about expanding their collection are also guilty of giving up/giving away animals...and buying and selling on whim.
Talk about part of the problem.

Who cares, except other people like you,,,if you've purchased this new exciting species. Hell even i'm selfish for getting what i've gotten so far...i do work very hard to make a decent life for the animals i have, but you won't catch me getting off of my high horse and ever saying it's okay to import any species just so i can keep it in a cage somewhere to expand my collection *rolls eyes*

jaleely · 06-22-12, 09:27 PM

Oh and just because all of our animals started out being caught in the wild, doesn't mean we should perpetuate doing that any further. Quite a few things have been done throughout history that are really just flat out unacceptable now. Why you would use the excuse "it's been done before" i have no idea.
If you have to get an animal imported from the wild just to suit your fancy...I think by my previous posts you know what i think of that...
Flat out selfish and just unnecessary. If you want to own a snake, go adopt one. Go get one from the millions and millions of ball python and boa breeders. If you are in it for the joy of owning a pet, that should be good enough for you.
If you're in it to breed and make money, import things you think you can breed and sell, or import things you want on display...you are just flat out selfish and pointless, and cruel. And selfish. Did i mention selfish?
It's not acceptable, it's unnecessary, and it's extremely spoiled. You, yes you, person who gets wild caught animals shipped to you...are really, really low.

UwabamiReptiles · 06-22-12, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaleely

I do not, and will not buy wild caught. If you want an animal, pony up the money to buy a captive bred...if you can't afford that, you shouldn't be buying it anyway. Go rescue something...heck snakes are TEN dollars at the pound here in my county.
Buying wild caught to "expand your collection" is selfish. Taking the animal from the wild is selfish. If it's bred in captivity it doesn't know what it's missing.

Not to mention it seems like a lot of people that worry about expanding their collection are also guilty of giving up/giving away animals...and buying and selling on whim.
Talk about part of the problem.

Who cares, except other people like you,,,if you've purchased this new exciting species. Hell even I'm selfish for getting what I've gotten so far...i do work very hard to make a decent life for the animals i have, but you won't catch me getting off of my high horse and ever saying it's okay to import any species just so i can keep it in a cage somewhere to expand my collection *rolls eyes*

Don't see how wanting to keep different animals is selfish. I'll rephrase what I said earlier, I would look for cbb first and if nothing comes up then I would consider wc. Not my first choice to get wc. I don't have any wc in my collection because I anyways look for cb first. Thats common sense to me. I don't see how wanting something other than a boa, ball python, or corn snake makes me whatever.

I completely get your point though as I know most of your collection is from rescues. I totally respect that. Its great that you gave those animals a great home (I know you take excellent care of all your animals from everything I've read on here). I give excellent care to all my animals, always have, always will. Thats the most important thing when keeping any animal.

I don't agree with the mass importation of animals that 90% die every year. But my red tailed green rats are ch and I hope to breed them someday so people can get cbb. Does that make me selfish?

Wiz, after reading your inserts into my post, I agree with the regulation thing. I didn't completely think that through before I posted it, you're right about the last thing we need is the government getting more involved in our hobby. I was only thinking about the thousands and thousands of bush baby bps that are imported every year. I didn't think about anything else, just the animals.

jaleely · 06-22-12, 09:53 PM

Honestly, for some reason right now i have a big bug up my butt about this and another issue.
You have a very reasonable and well thought out response, uwabami...I'm just really not into WC right now.

Was thinking about this post, and there are actually a few people whom I know have some exotic WC snakes...and i love their snakes. I still disagree with it, but i'm also being very fussy right now : )