need a little help here - Page 4

**Aaron_S** · 01-20-13, 09:47 PM

Personally, I've seen giant snakes thrive in larger enclosures so it's not an excuse to keep them in smaller enclosures. Although, I've heard of some do better in tighter confined areas. Brian at BHB has stated as such for Satan.

I do however, understand that a giant enclosure isn't realistic for most people. That's why I suggest they JUST DON'T OWN one. BUUUT they have to compensate somehow and the really awesome sports car is generally too much, or they lost their license already with a DUI or something else as stupid.

infernalis · 01-20-13, 09:51 PM

Too many people (not pointing at anyone, it seems to be epidemic in proportion anyway)
are only willing to provide "just enough to survive" and not willing to go the extra mile and provide any sort of quality of life for reptiles.

I see it this way, lock a mammal in and undersized enclosure, and they claw at the walls, make noises, etc.

Most reptiles have no voice, snakes have no legs, so they cannot scratch at the walls of the box, they can't wail out yelps, so they MUST be doing alright, hell it's eating, it looks healthy, what more does it need??

The whole reptile pet trade needs an overhaul, from many different angles.

Squirtle · 01-20-13, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iBaman

Fair point. When Pajamas is out, he mostly stays on me. Climbs to the top of my head and just sits there. Someday, I want to do an experiment and put him in a big room to 'explore'. All the zoos, pet stores and the like I've been to that have the giant enclosures for them, though, and the snakes just sit near the bottom or up in a tree.

Not true. I used to visit a local zoo (The Bronx Zoo) very frequently and they had a Tiger Reticulated Python that, although slowly, moved freely inside its enclosure. There are a lot of videos of it on YouTube, these are just two videos of it.

reticulated python at bronx zoo - YouTube

A Big Python - At The Bronx Zoo - YouTube

**Aaron_S** · 01-20-13, 09:57 PM

Wayne,

I don't know how prevalent you were in the hobby on the internet literally 10 years ago but that's when rack systems were pretty much ONLY for breeders. I guess since more people are "breeders" it's taken over more. Besides more animals, less room. Why not?

I know that sounds hypocritical but it isn't. It depends on the species and what you plan to do. I breed ball pythons. They do best in tubs. I personally won't own certain animals because I don't have the room for the required sizes.

For example I'd like tokay geckos but from my knowledge they apparently do best in huge enclosures and actually aren't evil when placed in them.

**Aaron_S** · 01-20-13, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirtle

Not true. I used to visit a local zoo (The Bronx Zoo) very frequently and they had a Tiger Reticulated Python that, although slowly, moved freely inside its enclosure. There are a lot of videos of it on YouTube, these are just two videos of it.

reticulated python at bronx zoo - YouTube

A Big Python - At The Bronx Zoo - YouTube

WHOA! Don't use logic and fact when dealing with retic information, it goes against what the patheon of retic god's say so it's not allowed.

I'd only like to add to this quote that Ibaman, just because you haven't seen them move at the pet store or the zoo doesn't mean they don't. You don't spend 24 hours there watching.

limey · 01-21-13, 02:13 AM

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, I just wanted to say that I personally would want the best quality of life for any animal I own. Pets shouldn't be "toys" and things that exist only to please us. Of course, it is pleasing to us that we own them and that they are part of our lives but they are living breathing creatures that deserve some semblance of a quality of life.

Thus, if I were to get a giant snake (which is highly unlikely in the near future) then I would ensure it had more than just a 6 ft viv. If I couldn't meet these needs, then I wouldn't get one at all. I see it is becoming increasingly popular to put snakes in undersized enclosures... and I don't agree with it, personally.

Pirarucu · 01-22-13, 04:23 PM

It should also noted that the size of the cage is not the only factor. Another is how useful the cage is to the animal. Put one in a twenty foot cage with nothing but a heat mat, a water bowl, and substrate, and of course it won't do anything. There is no behavior because there is no use for behavior. Make a cage with a large pond, multiple basking spots, and lots of climbing structures, and the animal will use every inch of it.
If you had to pick between living in a completely bare room the size of a football field or a small room with a bed, sink, closet, etc.. Which would you pick?

limey · 01-22-13, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

It should also noted that the size of the cage is not the only factor. Another is how useful the cage is to the animal. Put one in a twenty foot cage with nothing but a heat mat, a water bowl, and substrate, and of course it won't do anything. There is no behavior because there is no use for behavior. Make a cage with a large pond, multiple basking spots, and lots of climbing structures, and the animal will use every inch of it.
If you had to pick between living in a completely bare room the size of a football field or a small room with a bed, sink, closet, etc.. Which would you pick?

Agree 100%. I don't about the other guys, but you make a lot of sense to me and I feel the same way.

tommy757 · 01-22-13, 05:19 PM

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

Lankyrob · 01-22-13, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy757

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

So as an experienced keeper can you explain why the common rules for housing change when the snake reaches a certain length? And what length would you say this is? I am really genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on this.

**Aaron_S** · 01-22-13, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy757

Well ive been reading this thread and it seems that all of the people who are responsible for the lage snake hobbie are just blithering idiots AKA Bob Clark ,Tom Crutchfield ,Kevin w/ N.e.r.d and so on and so and so on are just slow and unsuccesful in thier care of these awesome creatures along w/ everyone on the RETIC NATION for doing it almost exactly the same as the titans of the hobbie and Im a member there Aaron S. lets do a couple of rounds if ya feel ready its no problem even after the hippocrit says he keeps his poor deprived Balls in a rack w/ tubs .With the logic provided here by the small keepers as well as the guy w/ a very small retic, Balls should be kept in the cages generally approved for retics to give the little guys room to peruse and sand boas should have cages w/ hieght to allow them to climb .SMH some of this discussion is just silly w/ the uninformed and inexperianced preaching off the soapbox

Funny how we're all uninformed. When someone apparently has a differing opinion they aren't "informed" or "experienced". I've owned burms and retics. I guess ignorance and closed-minded are requirements to be apart of the Mythical Patheon.

By the way, are we back in the 90s? Where we keep every animal the same? Oh every species needs the same space and environment. Update your information.

My ball pythons are quite fine in their enclosures. It's been PROVEN many times that they do well in smaller enclosures. I have kept dozens of sand boas by the way. Yet to see one climb, no matter what. Mine stay buried.

By the way, I believe if you have a couple ball pythons a proper enclosure,not gigantic either, (not fish cage) is more appropriate than my tubs. I breed my ball pythons so I have a rack system. They thrive and do fine. I also don't breed just five. I have 56 breeding females this season. One of my goals is to make all the wicked cool mutations more common so the price is affordable for everyone.

When you can make a sensible argument instead of just saying we're uninformed and inexperienced you can come back. Make an informed rebuttal.

tommy757 · 01-22-13, 08:51 PM

the thing our buddy above just said was that his balls do fine in a small enclosure and so do all of our retics and thats the point if it works and well,why change it.
Aaron why so aggressive you show youre inexperiance and ignorance by tryin to beat up on people who dont agree with you ,oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years right along with the baldagos and tom crutchfield hell man the list goes on and on its no longer opinion when every major player in the game does it the same way and buddy you are inexperianced with maybe 10 years ive got double that also with healthy snakes and a zero mortality rate Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm maybe im doin it right

it seems you justify the tiny tiny enclosure because you breed well congrats but the green eyed monster is starring at ya bud dont get Butt hurt

oh and in the 90,s you were still watchin barney youre first herp while I had real snakes.

tommy757 · 01-22-13, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

So as an experienced keeper can you explain why the common rules for housing change when the snake reaches a certain length? And what length would you say this is? I am really genuinely interested to hear your thoughts on this.

the method that was always used when I came up was the length of the snake halved by 3 deep and 2 high so a 16 foot snake should have an 8x3x2 most people when imahining a large retic imagine twinkie from PP wher as my 15 foot female is not even in the same league which means in her cage out of 24 sq feet of floor she would be lucky if she used 4 sq feet of it and the rules that everyone keeps mentioning where did the come from and how did they become reptile law if you dont mind me asking?

EmbraceCalamity · 01-22-13, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tommy757

oh and by the way if any of the big name guys are right not just the private keepers then retics are just fine in 8/10 foot enclosures since bobs been doing it for 30 years...

No one here said they're not "fine" in those size enclosures. People are arguing that it's not anywhere near ideal. The issue people take with it is that, despite the fact that they will survive, they won't thrive, as it is not a suitable size for such a large snake. People have decided to keep the enclosures small just because it's more convenient for them, not because it's what's best (not "fine" - best) for the snake.

Personally, I don't want something an animal will be "fine" in. My leopard gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 20 long, which is almost double the floor space of what she would be "fine" in. My crocodile gecko would be "fine" in a 10 gallon, but I keep her in a 33 gallon. My kingsnake would be "fine" in a 20 high (for now), but I keep her in a 29 gallon (and will be upgrading her to something larger). I want the best for my reptiles; I want them to thrive, not be "fine." And that is where you and I differ.

~Maggot

iBaman · 01-22-13, 11:23 PM

So tell the burm that just destroyed the pet store's nice enclosure (10x6x9) that has a waterfall, plenty of hiding space and that jazz that she NEEDS a huge enclosure. Left her there a week, and she was stressed, didn't stop moving. Put her in a 6ft cage and what do you know...nice and calm.