Interesting new whole prey item...

[murrindindi]

[QUOTE=formica;865999]

yes it does say half an hour, i misread

why are you wasting your time responding to this meaningless blather?

I couldn`t agree more, why are we responding to your meaningless blabber once again??? (It helps to pass the time, that`s why)....

[formica]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Why is that? Isn't the way coevolution works is that the 'organisms' are co-evolving to be better suited to infect their host (red queen race?). So maybe the organisms/parasites in the hosts original environment are more adapted at harming the host? And roadkill from another country is significantly less dangerous since the parasites or whatever haven't been a part of the evolutionary race?

Not saying they can't harm the host, just that it could go either way so your statement is a bit off..

yep for sure it works both ways at the same time, diffrent organisms will have diffrent ways of interacting with hosts, evolution is random, so its impossible to know for sure what effect the organism will have, with current understanding and technology at least

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by formica

evolution is random,

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by infernalis

LOL! Thanks for that, Wayne.

[Vegasarah]

Well....I came back to a lots of reading lol. Thank you gentlemen for really going above and beyond to answer my question. Got a little retailed there but I think the take away message is that I'm going to do a little more research on what kind of parasites I'm looking at with these scorpions. I know they are carnivorous so maybe they do have their own parasite load.

I'm also going to throw out that I consider my monitors to be "we'll supported". I provide a high enough basking temp to probably kill anything ingested but I want to be sure anyway.

If nothing turns up for parasites in scorpions in the state of NV I might just go for it.!

[franks]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

Wow, what a mess.
Hey Formica, besides reading less than 1% of the academic research done and misunderstanding it do you have any real experience with parasites in varanids? How about any experience feeding wild caught prey to varanids? how about any evidence to back up what you say in any form? Any fecal exams you can show me where "alien" parasites have taken hold in varanids? anything that in anyway would lend any credit at all to what you are saying here?

Franks, why do you say Daniel Bennett came closer than ANYONE else to providing "real" information about the "science" of our hobby? What are you comparing his work with? Who's work is a close second in your mind?
Ever bothered to pick up any of Auffenbergs work? Ever even flipped through one of his volumes? Or watched any of his speeches? All of his work is easily available and obviously with a statement like that you are familiar with his work right? So do tell, how does Auffenberg stack up to Bennett when it comes to the "science" of our hobby?
Ben

A

Hey Ben. No disrespect to Auffenberg or anyone else who has actually studied these monitors. I have been trying to get formica to read him for a while, to answer some of his assertions and only meant that statement in comparison to people on the internet and forums making claims on topics that contradict statements DB made but have never been to Africa. I made too sweeping of a generalization.

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by franks

A

Hey Ben. No disrespect to Auffenberg or anyone else who has actually studied these monitors. I have been trying to get formica to read him for a while, to answer some of his assertions and only meant that statement in comparison to people on the internet and forums making claims on topics that contradict statements DB made but have never been to Africa. I made too sweeping of a generalization.

No problem at all Franks, sorry if I was harsh, I'm about the most polite guy you'd ever meet in reality, I just am passionate about varanids and varanid husbandry.
I am flabbergasted when I see people in this age of information acting like nobody has ever studied these animals in the wild. Auffenberg took the time to measure every tree, every rock identify every bug and parasite in the study area, dissect 100's of animals at different times of year and did extensive behavioral and dietary studies, so when I see people like formica who act as if nothings been studied and nobody has a clue about the ethology of these animals my head starts to boil. To think that ANYONE would dismiss or neglect the years of hard work and dedication some of the early workers did so they could make wild guesses and stabs in the dark bothers me to no end and I get heated.
I don't suffer fools gladly, and you are obviously not a fool Franks. Thanks for the response.
Best.

[Mikoh4792]

Guess the evolution vs creationism conversation was deleted by a mod.

[formica]

Originally Posted by infernalis

[img/img]

are you implying that evolution follows some kind of plan? we're not going to end up talking about creationism are we....

[formica]

incase you are under the impression that evolution responds to the environment to change a species, thats not actually how it works.

Mutations occur in DNA randomly, if that mutation is beneficial to the species, then it becomes part of the species make up, if not, it dies - survival of the fittest, as Darwin called it.

mutations do not arise out of need or requirement, they occur randomly and may or may not be beneficial

[smy_749]

Formica is right with evolution, and thats a rather good way of explaining it I must say. Environmental pressures pick and choose, but they don't create.

[smy_749]

Darwin didnt even like the word evolution actually, and hesitated to use it initially because people hear 'evolve' and believe that the more something evolves, the more advanced and 'better' the species is, which isn't true. Some species dont need to evolve...

[formica]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Darwin didnt even like the word evolution actually, and hesitated to use it initially because people hear 'evolve' and believe that the more something evolves, the more advanced and 'better' the species is, which isn't true. Some species dont need to evolve...

descent with modification he called it, bit of a mouth full haha

I take issue with the word Adaption myself, I feel it has mislead a large number of people into thinking that mutations occur directly in response to the environment to fulfill a particular need of a species

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by formica

descent with modification he called it, bit of a mouth full haha

I take issue with the word Adaption myself, I feel it has mislead a large number of people into thinking that mutations occur directly in response to the environment to fulfill a particular need of a species

Everything with evolution is misunderstood honestly. Its one of my favorite topics these days though. One of the major ones is that "People didn't come from chimps and gorillas" that people who never studied it try to educate me on lol Anyways, I don't mean to pull this thread further off course but yea, descent with modification is a better suited phrase, dunno why it never stuck.

[Pirarucu]

Originally Posted by formica

are you implying that evolution follows some kind of plan? we're not going to end up talking about creationism are we....

I sure hope not, but that does not mean evolution is random.. Mutations are random, evolution is not. Evolution/natural selection is what divides up the beneficial and negative mutations, and wipes out the negatives. It is far from random. If it were, we would have a crap ton of rather useless adaptations.

Now, there are a few theories that evolution and life in general may exhibit self-organizing behaviors, similar to the way crystals fall into regular patterns.. But I won't get into that now.