Burm/ball hybrid

[Will0W783]

I think the hybrids are fine if they are clearly represented as such and the gene pools of pure species are maintained as well. There are some hybrids that cause a lot of problems to the snakes, and are rarely viable, but many of the hybrids do just fine and are really neat-looking.

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Will0W783

Look at what's going on in the Everglades for an example of wild, semi-natural hybridization: the Burmese python population is hybridizing with African rock pythons. The two species are extremely closely related, but the offspring are larger than either parent and have shown to be much hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells.

Oh dear god...please tell me you're joking. Please tell me you do not believe that is true. Can you provide references?

As far as I know, only six Afrocks have been found in Florida since 2002, and not in the areas where Burmese have been documented. There is no evidence that the two species have successfully hybridized in Florida, nor is there there any evidence that such a crossing would be "hardier and more resistant to the cold winter spells."

Again...I'd like to know where you are getting your information from to back that claim.

[Will0W783]

I thought they had documented proof of hybridization and the hybrids were bigger? They're not "Super snakes" or any real threat beyond the Burms, but I could have sworn I read something actually documenting genetic proof of hybrids. I could be wrong though. I certainly don't believe all the ridiculous hype that goes on. Most of the populations of Burms, Afrocks AND others have died out because of the really cold winter Florida had.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

So what about hybrids that do happen in the wild? It happen a lot. All over the world with many different species.
Most of todays species are the result of hybridization and intergrading according to scientific DNA research. Are hybrids an abomination or a fast foward button on evolution?....

I know it's become a generalized hybrid debate but show me the wild caught burmese x ball python hybrid and we can then talk all about the natural intergrades.

One point to make about locale purity is that some snakes regions cross over. Most notable is the Guyana and Surinam regions and their locale boas. Only we as people have made imaginary lines through the jungle that these snakes do not obey. I'm sure there's more crosses of these that just happen to look like one of the parents out there as a "pure".

As stated though, in the wild the bloodlines get diluted back through more breeding or simply they don't make it to adulthood to reproduce.

[Will0W783]

As stated though, in the wild the bloodlines get diluted back through more breeding or simply they don't make it to adulthood to reproduce.

Yep! This is one of the reasons we have to be careful what we do breeding-wise in captivity. We've removed natural selection and evolutionary pressures, so it's completely our responsibility to ensure we only breed healthy animals.

[StudentoReptile]

There's a few "news" articles floating around there with statements from "scientists" that claim the two species could hybridize (which is plausible; it certainly happens in captivity). But as far as I can tell no one has ever found the two species copulating with each other, nor has anyone actually ever found an actual hybrid.

Its all speculation, and the media has hyped it up in that "Super Snake" special you;re referring to. Given the small market for Afrocks compared to Burms, and taking into account that burms have established themselves in Florida decades before anyone ever found the first Afrock, AND...with the recent rule listing that bans importation of both species, and the ROC law that prohibits ownership of both in Florida.......it is doubtful that Afrocks will ever become really established enough down there to become a real threat, so such a hybrid is even more unlikely.

And I personally don't think they are any more equipped to handle Florida's climate than Burms (perhaps less so), so I don't know why a hybrid would be MORE adaptable.

[Will0W783]

Thanks....yeah it's probably mostly conjecture, although I think the two species could hybridize as they are very very closely related.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

There's a few "news" articles floating around there with statements from "scientists" that claim the two species could hybridize (which is plausible; it certainly happens in captivity). But as far as I can tell no one has ever found the two species copulating with each other, nor has anyone actually ever found an actual hybrid.

Its all speculation, and the media has hyped it up in that "Super Snake" special you;re referring to. Given the small market for Afrocks compared to Burms, and taking into account that burms have established themselves in Florida decades before anyone ever found the first Afrock, AND...with the recent rule listing that bans importation of both species, and the ROC law that prohibits ownership of both in Florida.......it is doubtful that Afrocks will ever become really established enough down there to become a real threat, so such a hybrid is even more unlikely.

And I personally don't think they are any more equipped to handle Florida's climate than Burms (perhaps less so), so I don't know why a hybrid would be MORE adaptable.

What your thoughts on why it may be less equipped to handle Florida's climate?

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

What your thoughts on why it may be less equipped to handle Florida's climate?

Note "perhaps."

I suppose it would depend on which species of Afrock we're talking about.

Seems like the Burm's native environment is a slightly closer match to southern Florida than that of Python sebae natalensis. Python sebae sebae....meh, about the same.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I know it's become a generalized hybrid debate but show me the wild caught burmese x ball python hybrid and we can then talk all about the natural intergrades.

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

I see your point but I'm just not going to debate it. It's a discussion I rather not get into as it's never ending.

I see your point as I mentioned on what you were talking about with natural intergrades.

I think it's interesting that two animals can make hybrids. Fertile ones at that. It's personally not something I wish to do though. I prefer all my pretty colours.

[jaleely]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

He was wild caught in west Africa. Came in on an import from Ghana. He was an adult when he was imported. These wild caught hybrids come in pretty often. Wild caught female gaboons that were gravid at the time of import have dropped entire litters of hybrids as well.

I think that's kind of cool, actually. I still like the look of a plain old gaboon viper though! : )

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

We can talk about natural hybrids and intergrades all we like. In captivity, anything natural is thrown out the window anyway. Where do we draw the line at how unnatural we want to go with breeding. The only logical answer is...... As far as you personally want to go. The truth is, whether you care to admit it or not, the rules of nature do not apply in captivity and anything pretty much goes.
We as humans "play god". Basically, when it comes to our captive reptiles, we are indeed god. Whe control every aspect of their captive life. When they eat, when they drink, when they brumate, when and who they breed with. This is NOTHING natural about what we do.

I see no difference at all between breeding morphs and breeding hybrids. Only instead of introducing new, healthy genes like when breeding hybrids, you are perpetuating defective genes when you breed morphs. Seriously, is one less bad than the other?

Just something to think about here. We humans are a natural part of the environment on earth.As natural as a storm or plate shift that makes continents either break apart or collide. Being that we are a natural force of nature, how unnatural is it that we force two diffrent species together and they then do what comes naturally to them?

ah kind of a good point. I mull over this a lot. I kind of disagree with muddy lines, but then i also believe that if they weren't close enough genetically to breed, then it just wouldn't happen...and therefore may not be a big deal.

I also go back and forth about morphs. Some people made some good points about the garters and other snakes in Europe that have been "inbred" for generations, because that's all that were available. I DO think that there had to be some pretty strong genetics to begin with to last this long, and i do think that picking out morphs can sometimes also strengthen genetic faults...in the case of all the snakes coming from one set of parents, people aren't breeding morphs, they're just breeding to breed them...so perhaps some traits aren't strengthened, but may be passed on but are recessive. When it comes to specific pattern and color breeding, as with morphs, i guess i just wish snake temperament and health played a bigger factor rather than color and pattern.

I don't know. Sometimes i am swayed. lol I admit it. We'll have to see how i feel after i breed. I plan to breed my dumeril's boas, sand boas, and hognoses, maybe my garters, all in the future *shrug*

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I never stateg that a burm ball was natural. I asked about natural hybrids being that CDN made a blanket statement that hybrids in general, are not natural. You do have to admit that it is pretty odd that 2 different species can successfully produce healthy offspring that can go on to produce their own offspring. If it were not supposed to happen, it wouldnt. Primates and humans can not interbreed successfully because the genetic code does not match. However with different species of reptiles, the genetic codes do match.

Do you have proof to support this? First hand experience maybe?

[moshirimon]

Check this out. Retic X Ball

http://wallflowerherps.weebly.com/up...6_orig.jpg?549

[snake man12]

Now that's a snake!!!