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03-20-11, 02:43 PM
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#31
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Super Genius
Join Date: Nov-2002
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Age: 49
Posts: 6,292
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Re: My BP hates me!
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"that seems like a conditioned response to me so i would assume that ball pythons have some capacity for learning"
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There are decades of hard science that prove you totally wrong.
It's nice to think that though.
As an egotistical species, we as humans find it hard to comprehend with our limited mental faculties that we would keep pets for our amusement that are dumber than us.
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03-20-11, 02:49 PM
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#32
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Moderator
Join Date: May-2008
Location: Central New York State
Age: 60
Posts: 16,536
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Re: My BP hates me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by citysnakes
on feeding night, after the lights go out and the snake room has been pre-scented with frozen, thawing rodents, most of my ball pythons are seen in the striking position at the front of their tub awaiting their meals.
that seems like a conditioned response to me so i would assume that ball pythons have some capacity for learning.
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No disrespect Julian, I have seen this with my Royal, and my colubrids.
They are responding to scent, another pre-progammed response.
It's most apparent with my Garters, bring a stinky trout into the room, they all start looking for food.
They are responding to the scent in the air, nothing more.
My hand looks nothing like a fish, tastes nothing like a fish, but if I touch a fish and then open a garter snake viv, I am going to bleed for sure, it's unavoidable.
Even my sweetest most docile ladies will try to eat my hand when they smell fish.
__________________
"Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes
of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?"
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03-20-11, 07:41 PM
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#33
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Member
Join Date: Mar-2011
Posts: 24
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Re: My BP hates me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damion930
Yeah ill agree after I posted that I thought to myself what actual habits do any of my snakes have. They truly seem to be creatures of action and reaction they respond to direct stimuli rather than any kind of learned response. If at all possible it would probably take a considerable amount of time exposed to the stimulus to acheve a conditioned response. Now you have me very curious see my retic appears to favor me over others but im wondering is it recognition or is he somehow responding to my demeanor...the vibe I give off. Does anyone have an example of what seems to be a learned response to outside stimulus. Oh and very good point with the lamps Wayne.
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Now that is an interesting topic. My leos always seemed to recognize me. After checking for hand warmth and finding them the same, me and a friend handled my guys. They laid flat on my hand and raised on their feet on his hand. This was the same outcome with several other people and myself. I know I've heard somewhere that Iguanas recognize the sound of their keepers voice. There was some big study on it, I can't find the link to the article. Wonder if it is the same with snakes? Maybe recognition of a heat signature? Or are their brains just as different from lizard species? I've never noticed it with my ball python.
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03-20-11, 08:17 PM
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#34
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Moderator
Join Date: May-2008
Location: Central New York State
Age: 60
Posts: 16,536
Country:
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Re: My BP hates me!
Lizards have bigger brains..
__________________
"Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes
of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?"
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03-20-11, 09:05 PM
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#35
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Member
Join Date: Nov-2010
Location: redmond oregon
Posts: 590
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Re: My BP hates me!
I still believe ther must be some conditional response for example go in the wild pick up a wild retic your most likely getting bit and it will try and get away. Reach in my tank and he wont do ither. This must be a learned behavior or they would just bit and never be able to be held. Ther is an easy test to check if they have the capacity to be conditioned you simply need the existance of a unconditional stimulus that elicits an unconditional response in the subject. The ucr is usually a physiological response that can be caused by an ucs for example pupil constriction is an ucr caused by light hitting the eye this is the ucs. We also need a cs a stimulus of which the subject can be made aware but which initially does not cause the ucr. The cs is presented in several trials followed closely by the ucs causing the ucr. After several times of blowing the whistle while shining a light in the eye you should if conditioning is possible be able to blow the whisle and cause a cr pupil constriction. It would be very interesting to know for sure if snakes can be conditioned at all though now that im thinking about it can they hear a whistle lol.
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03-20-11, 09:51 PM
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#36
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Member
Join Date: Jul-2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 670
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Re: My BP hates me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mykee
There are decades of hard science that prove you totally wrong.
It's nice to think that though.
As an egotistical species, we as humans find it hard to comprehend with our limited mental faculties that we would keep pets for our amusement that are dumber than us.
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and i may be completely wrong but the fact is that conditioning is a form of learning and if a response can be conditioned in a ball python then it has some capacity for learning.
but thanks Mike, here i was thinking my ball python enjoys watching tv with me.... 
Quote:
Originally Posted by infernalis
No disrespect Julian, I have seen this with my Royal, and my colubrids.
They are responding to scent, another pre-progammed response.
It's most apparent with my Garters, bring a stinky trout into the room, they all start looking for food.
They are responding to the scent in the air, nothing more.
My hand looks nothing like a fish, tastes nothing like a fish, but if I touch a fish and then open a garter snake viv, I am going to bleed for sure, it's unavoidable.
Even my sweetest most docile ladies will try to eat my hand when they smell fish.
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Wayne i completely agree with you in that the scent of food in the air will trigger a feeding response in hungry animals. obviously this is only natural.
what may be conditioned is the tendency to take position at the very front of their tubs ready to strike at anything coming in when it opens. i dont see many of my balls positioned at the back or side of their tubs waiting to strike in a random direction. the majority of my hungry ball pythons are ready to strike in the direction of where their food always appears and thats wherever the enclosure is opened.
this is just an observation of mine and maybe others with much larger collections than mine dont observe this but my observation tells me that these animals remember the direction of where their food comes from or are conditioned to position themselves in a direction where food is most likely to be located after picking up its scent.
if they where to randomly be positioned in their tubs waiting for food to come from any direction then i would believe that no form of learning has occurred but based on my limited observations i believe this not to be the case.
as i said i could be wrong but many believe some form of conditioning can occur in ball pythons and the debate will continue i guess...
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03-20-11, 10:00 PM
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#37
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Member
Join Date: Nov-2010
Location: redmond oregon
Posts: 590
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Re: My BP hates me!
Nice city I like the directon thing unless the sent comes strongest from the direction of the front of the enclosure lol. But, positioning and facing the direction the food comes from when they get a sent would most definitely seem to be a cr.
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03-20-11, 10:45 PM
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#38
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Moderator
Join Date: May-2008
Location: Central New York State
Age: 60
Posts: 16,536
Country:
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Re: My BP hates me!
One thing about this discussion that has made me wonder, I have snakes here that would never touch a pinkie unless I rubbed fish on it first, then eventually I could quit scenting, what's up with that?
__________________
"Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes
of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?"
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03-20-11, 10:54 PM
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#39
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Member
Join Date: Nov-2010
Location: Sonoma, CA
Age: 35
Posts: 2,242
Country:
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Re: My BP hates me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by infernalis
One thing about this discussion that has made me wonder, I have snakes here that would never touch a pinkie unless I rubbed fish on it first, then eventually I could quit scenting, what's up with that?
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i'm sure it'd smell like both pinky AND fish, so they'd eventually expect that food is supposed to smell like pinky also. that would be my assumtion.
__________________
-Zak
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03-21-11, 01:33 AM
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#40
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Member
Join Date: Nov-2010
Location: redmond oregon
Posts: 590
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Re: My BP hates me!
It would seem Wayne that the fish smell would be your ucs eating fish sented food your ucr pinky smell your cs. Eventualy you remove the ucs and the cs causes a cr. Ther could ofcourse be other factors but that would seem to be the way it works out. Very interesting stuff
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03-23-11, 12:15 AM
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#41
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Member
Join Date: Nov-2010
Location: redmond oregon
Posts: 590
Country:
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Re: My BP hates me!
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03-23-11, 11:59 AM
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#42
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Member
Join Date: Mar-2011
Posts: 53
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Re: My BP hates me!
I had a grey rat snake that was ALWAYS pissy with me. She never grew out of that.
ANYWHO my bp was a bit sketchy at first but shes warmed up nicely over a few months. Couple of things I do, I handle her at night when she is awake as opposed to waking her up, I dont approach her head as she is still head-shy, and I only hold her gently by the middle and let her decide where she wants to roam around on my hand/arm.
After a few seconds of holding her she will get comfy and start wriggling around, invariably she will end up inside my shirt or trying to bury herself in whatever im sitting on (sheets, couch cushions, laundry).
Keep trying, dont give up.
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