Mad hognose - Page 2

CK SandBoas · 05-06-12, 01:22 PM

I love Hoggies cute little faces!

jaleely · 05-06-12, 01:54 PM

One of my previous posts

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/heter...nose-bite.html

buffcoat · 05-06-12, 04:19 PM

Jaleely I didn't read every thread on this subject but my hoggy has decided to do the same thing recently. He's also way over due for a shed. Hes refused his last two meals and decided he's gonna be a real bad a$$ and flare and hiss and even strike. Its kinda funny cause the second I take the food from his viv he's as happy as a lark and wants to come out.

insignia100 · 05-06-12, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

This information is 100% false.

Hognose snakes are indeed a rear fanged venomous species. When people do have reactions to their bite it is NOT an allergic reaction. I wish people would learn the cases of an allergic reaction and how alergies actually work.

Some links
Local envenoming by the Western hognose snake (Heterodon nasicus): A case report and review of medically significant Heterodon bites
hognose snake bite
Characterization of venom (Duvernoy's secretion) fro... [Toxicon. 2000] - PubMed - NCBI
rear-fanged.com:::The herpetological resource for opistoglyphous snakes|Trugnattern

The very first article you mention states: "It is currently unclear whether the pathological changes associated with these bites are due to specific Duvernoy's secretion components, Type I hypersensitivity or a combination of these.... Although hognose snakes may uncommonly produce medically significant bites, they should not be considered dangerous or venomous."

The second article shows the classic signs of a hypersensitivity reaction. I had a similar reaction last year from a bite from a biting midge. Does that mean biting midges are venomous?

I'll grant you that the third article does seem to suggest that they are venomous (in my experience, just because a scientific article comes to a specific conclusion, it doesn't necessarily mean that conclusion is correct), I still stand by my assertion that hognoses shouldn't be considered venomous in the classical sense.

Quote:

Here is an article written by Jim Veverka.

Inspecting bite and follow-up: "There were two groups of tiny holes in the skin about 3/4 of an inch apart. Each site was slightly swollen and clear fluid containing small amounts of blood continued to seep from the wounds. I felt a burning sensation in the immediate area. In about half an hour, minor redness and swelling spread for about two inches around the area of the bites. Fluid still seepted from the punctures and the burning and itching sensations continued. After another two hours, things seemed to have stabilized, so I went to bed.

Monday morning, October 15, when I got up at 4:15 AM, my ankle felt a little sore as though I had bumped it. In the semi-darkness of the room I didn't bother to look at it as I dressed for work. However, as my work day started, so did the discoloration, swelling and burning around the bite area, and the seepage of bloody fluid from the punctures. By the end of my work day at about 2:00 PM, the entire area from my toes to about four inches above the bite had swollen to twice its normal size. A good portion of the area around the ankle from 1-1/2" to 3" above the bite was alarmingly bright red and various large fluid filled blisters had erupted. The entire area of my ankle felt as if it was on fire and the front of my sock was saturated with the reddish fluid seeping from the wounds.

I am not one to run to the doctor for every little thing, but I decided, in this case, it might be the smartest choice and with insurance form in hand, I drove straight to our family doctor. By the time I arrived, one especially large blister under the ankle bone on the left side burned, itched, and appeared ready to burst. One look at this mess and the doctor immediately called the Poison Control Center in Atlanta, GA. Of course they list the hognose snake as n0n-venomous and harmless to man, so there was no help there. Since my vital signs remained normal and all of the symptoms were localized, treatment consisted of an injection of adrenalin in the lower leg as an anti-shock measure, a tetanus shot in the arm, and a massive dose of antibiotics in the rear end. With a bottle of very expensive antibiotics and an appointment for the next morning, I was sent home.

Tuesday morning didn't bring much change. The big blister on the left side of my ankle had grown in size and new areas of redness and blisters had appeared on the right side around the ankle bone and down to the heel of my foot. At the doctor's office I recieved another large dose of antibiotics and the doctor decided to open the large left side blister. Inside of the blister was a large glob of gelled clear fluid which had to be removed, along with the skin. This left a raw area aboout the size of a half dollar. Burning, pain, and swelling still persisted, but the fluid seepage appeared to be lessening.

There was little change on Wednesday except that the bite wounds had sealed and all the fluid loss was from the opened blister area. The swelling seemed less on Thursday morning, but was again as intense by evening. However, the color of the red areas on the right side of the ankle had darkened and expanded and the raw area on the right side had partially dried out.

I saw the doctor again on Friday, the 19th, and he agreed that things were finally turning for the better. The red areas were all darkening and expanding, the skin felt thick, the raw area had dried and formed a scab. The doctor said the red areas were dead tissue that would either be absorbed by the body or peel and slough off in time.

Three weeks after I was bitten, progress was definite. Very little swelling remained. The areas of redness had all turned dark red and had begun to disappear. Those areas that remained peeled constantly. Where the blister was removed there was a nice thick scab and the burning pain had been replaced by a feeling of tightness around the ankle. Although I returned to work after three weeks, it's going to take several more weeks for all remains of the bite to disappear and for the ankle to look normal again.

Seven and one-half weeks post bite, there is still some discoloration and swelling around the ankle. The skin feels very thick and rough and it's still constantly peeling. The area where the blister was opened is healing nicely, although a scar remains. One area by the ankle bone on the right side still has a scab and the original puncture sites remain prominent and more discolored. The skin in the bite area is thicker, peels more, still itches and tends to be sensitized."

Does this really sound like an allergic reaction?

I can't say much because I know nothing of human medicine, but I would expect more necrosis if it were a true venomous reaction.

jaleely · 05-06-12, 08:53 PM

As far as i've read, it hasn't been determined as to if they are venomous, or if there is a reaction to the saliva.
I posted my physical reactions to being bitten in the above link. All symptoms I had disappeared after taking benadryl.

jaleely · 05-06-12, 08:55 PM

buffcoat, My little guy is a continuous brat. I have another video on here where i am feeding him two pinkies, when he was small...and i was trying to get rid of the pinkies...lol...and he hisses at the second one *every* time i fed him...but he the second one super fast. Sooo cute and bratty! And he was the one who *wouldn't* eat for like two months when i first got him! He's a feisty thing.
My other male is super friendly and easy going...just gets really sad looking when he's going to shed *lol*

jaleely · 05-06-12, 08:56 PM

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/heter...nose-eats.html

Strutter769 · 05-06-12, 09:05 PM

Seriously, Melissa?! Three (3) tongue shots in the same thread?! Very impressive!

Hoggies are so unique! Very cool.

jaleely · 05-06-12, 10:43 PM

LOL! I know, right?? You're funny.

I have to admit...I may start a little breeding project if i get a female hognose. I would probably hyperventilate and squee myself to death with the cuteness of baby hoggies hatching. They are hands down one of my fav snakes!

Trollbie · 05-06-12, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaleely

LOL! I know, right?? You're funny.

I have to admit...I may start a little breeding project if i get a female hognose. I would probably hyperventilate and squee myself to death with the cuteness of baby hoggies hatching. They are hands down one of my fav snakes!

I just almost peed myself laughing lol!

Gregg M · 05-07-12, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by insignia100

I still stand by my assertion that hognoses shouldn't be considered venomous in the classical sense.

I can't say much because I know nothing of human medicine, but I would expect more necrosis if it were a true venomous reaction.

They should not be considered dangerous but that does not take away from the fact that they are indeed technically venomous in the classical sense. They have "venom glands" and fangs that are used to help mobilze the venom to their prey or "attacker". I used to believe they were nonvenomous as well. Now I know better.

And why would you expect more necrosis? Some of the worlds most venomous colubrids do not give necrotic bites. Even some species of cobra do not give necrotic bites. The severity of necrosis has to do with venom type.

Here are a few links from BGFs site. He has studied the venom in heterodon.

Read spacifically what VenomDoc (Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry) And WW (Wolfgang) writes.
If you want to argue that hogs are not venomous at this point, you can do it with the leading researchers in the feild.

Venomdoc Forums :: View topic - Is western hognose venom life threatning?

Venomdoc Forums :: View topic - Western hognose snakes

Venomdoc Forums :: View topic - Heterodon Nasicus venom

Fredricks · 05-07-12, 06:59 AM

I get my first hognose in a week or so I'm hoping. The guy I'm getting him from just wants to make sure they have eaten 3 times to be sure. I'm excited and this thread and all the links just made it even worse!
Amazing thread

**Pareeeee** · 05-07-12, 07:53 AM

Very cute pictures!

For anyone suspicious about the 'venomous' topic, yes, hognose do have a type of venom but not in the same way other venomous snakes do. They do not have venom glands, but they do have a special salivary gland called Duvernoy’s gland which secretes toxic saliva. This toxic saliva seeps into the wound made by their elongated teeth.

StudentoReptile · 05-07-12, 08:45 AM

I have a few studies that relate to colubrid venom and one on hognose venom specifically. They are too large to upload, but I can email them to anyone interested...

...or if someone can explain in a PM a way to put them in a ZIP, I'm all ears! The current Zip file is also too large.

Gregg M · 05-07-12, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pareeeee

Very cute pictures!

For anyone suspicious about the 'venomous' topic, yes, hognose do have a type of venom but not in the same way other venomous snakes do. They do not have venom glands, but they do have a special salivary gland called Duvernoy’s gland which secretes toxic saliva. This toxic saliva seeps into the wound made by their elongated teeth.

Their venom is NOT a toxic saliva. It is actually a vemon. Big difference. The Duvernoy’s gland is in fact primitive version of a venom gland. They are far removed from salivary gland.

What hognose snakes do lack is a grooved fang and venom ducts.