Reptillian Theories

[Danimal]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

This is being discussed because we get all kinds of people coming on her that have snakes that just love them and them alone. Logical people get that that isn't how it works but these people get all upset and angry. So if we can compile some real evidence for those that lack the ability to use logic then we stop being haters and maybe they will gain some understanding.

I'm with you Korbin, my approach is just different. It is illogical and irrational, I just wonder how you are going to ever be able to have a rational conversation on that subject with those types of personalities. Outside of any imminent danger to the animal, is it really worth the effort?

I am not suggesting apathy here either, just pick better battles. We have quite a few to pick from. I think there needs to be more education to generate more interest in the hobby. I also think that we can't even talk to each other most of the time much less someone new to the hobby. Petty squabbling of the most insignificant difference of opinion on husbandry or semantics to make sure we have wiggle room out of a bad answer.
One disclaimer about the more negative part of my statement here.
I am not suggesting that no one ever gets helped here, but even in a helpful thread, it's the 3-5+ pages of infighting that seems counter productive.

Just saying that there are things that way on me more heavily than if Betty Jo thinks her lizard kisses her everyday when she gets home from work.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by Danimal

I'm with you Korbin, my approach is just different. It is illogical and irrational, I just wonder how you are going to ever be able to have a rational conversation on that subject with those types of personalities. Outside of any imminent danger to the animal, is it really worth the effort?

I am not suggesting apathy here either, just pick better battles. We have quite a few to pick from. I think there needs to be more education to generate more interest in the hobby. I also think that we can't even talk to each other most of the time much less someone new to the hobby. Petty squabbling of the most insignificant difference of opinion on husbandry or semantics to make sure we have wiggle room out of a bad answer.
One disclaimer about the more negative part of my statement here.
I am not suggesting that no one ever gets helped here, but even in a helpful thread, it's the 3-5+ pages of infighting that seems counter productive.

Just saying that there are things that way on me more heavily than if Betty Jo thinks her lizard kisses her everyday when she gets home from work.

Lol! The problem is that some of these people are putting their pets and our hobby in serious danger. Now does that mean they will listen? Nope. If ignorance is bliss most of those people are orgasmic. So why would they listen?

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by Danimal

I'm with you Korbin, my approach is just different. It is illogical and irrational, I just wonder how you are going to ever be able to have a rational conversation on that subject with those types of personalities. Outside of any imminent danger to the animal, is it really worth the effort?

I am not suggesting apathy here either, just pick better battles. We have quite a few to pick from. I think there needs to be more education to generate more interest in the hobby. I also think that we can't even talk to each other most of the time much less someone new to the hobby. Petty squabbling of the most insignificant difference of opinion on husbandry or semantics to make sure we have wiggle room out of a bad answer.
One disclaimer about the more negative part of my statement here.
I am not suggesting that no one ever gets helped here, but even in a helpful thread, it's the 3-5+ pages of infighting that seems counter productive.

Just saying that there are things that way on me more heavily than if Betty Jo thinks her lizard kisses her everyday when she gets home from work.

Well said. As long as Betty Jo cares for her lizard responsibly and properly, and doesn't walk around in public with it in a handbag like she's a Kardashian, I really could care less if she thinks it "loves" her or not.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Well said. As long as Betty Jo cares for her lizard responsibly and properly, and doesn't walk around in public with it in a handbag like she's a Kardashian, I really could care less if she thinks it "loves" her or not.

This is where I am at too, I may think it's a little fruity, but as long as the animal is getting proper care, it's needs are met and it's not getting mauled to death, then big whoop.

[jarich]

I actually was enjoying the trend these last few comments were showing and so thought about not commenting further. However, I did find something rather funny about the certainty displayed in this thread, especially given that the foremost authorities in the world on this subject aren't that certain yet. Words like 'fact', 'logic', and 'rationality' keep getting used throughout, yet not a single person could come up with a single piece of research to back it up. Some simplistic case of an interpretation of animal behaviour that you assume to be right, but could easily be interpreted otherwise, is not research or proof of anything. The real shame of it is, that there is a great deal of interesting research on this topic, and the one person (Falconeer) who put up a starting point, was largely ignored.

So what you are all saying then is that you had an opinion, you saw some conjectural evidence to make you think its right, you assume your opinion is 'fact', 'logic' and 'rational', wont even consider a different opinion and you make fun of others for thinking otherwise.

I think its funny because its exactly what the people you are making fun of have done. They too started with an opinion, saw some conjectural evidence that made them think it was right, and assumed it was logical, rational etc. Which means, I suppose, the only difference between you and them is that they arent making fun of you for your beliefs.

I guess what I am saying is that you have your beliefs (that reptiles have no emotions) and that is all they are until you actually have some proof to say otherwise. So too with people who believe that reptiles can love them or whatever. Youre both in the same uneducated boat and until you decide to do something to get out of it, your ridicule of the other occupants seems ridiculous.

[Lankyrob]

The overwhelming amount of evidence from experienced keepers of these animals is that they DONT have emotions so in that situation i would look to the opposers of thsi view to provide the evidence

[jarich]

Again Rob, that's not evidence, that's conjecture and assumption.

[EmbraceCalamity]

Originally Posted by jarich

Again Rob, that's not evidence, that's conjecture and assumption.

I attempted to find some published scientific articles regarding the topic. There weren't many, but I found a few, but I wasn't allowed access to the full text. I'll try again through my university's database later and see if I can find anything.

~Maggot

[StudentoReptile]

The tricky part is truly defining emotion, a very subjective concept within itself.

And we're trying to apply this to animals that have no means of facial expression, no vocalization (with few exceptions), limited gesturing.

Even comparing a lizard to a dog, you're going to come up short. Dogs wag their tails when they are "happy/friendly/cordial." What does a lizard do when its happy? I haven't a clue. So to prove they have emotion, you have to prove they can express it.

I think crossing the intelligence barrier is the first step, but my instincts tell me that there really is nothing there in the emotion dept when it comes to reptiles.

Let's look at the animals we do know have some level of emotion: canines, felines, cetaceans, elephants, primates, some birds. Most of these are animals that have established social groups, and all are species that have relatively lengthy time spans for rearing offspring (some for many years!). Yeah, there are a couple exceptions here and there of lizard species being communal or pair-bonding, or the offspring stays with the parent(s) for an extended period...but none of these really compare to what we see in the mammal and avian world. I just don't see it.

I don't have all the answers, but until there is sufficient evidence that suggests otherwise, there is a unique combination of intelligence and complex social behavior that allows for a particular species to possess emotion. I have yet to see it in any reptile.

[Ryodraco]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Let's look at the animals we do know have some level of emotion: canines, felines, cetaceans, elephants, primates, some birds. Most of these are animals that have established social groups, and all are species that have relatively lengthy time spans for rearing offspring (some for many years!). Yeah, there are a couple exceptions here and there of lizard species being communal or pair-bonding, or the offspring stays with the parent(s) for an extended period...but none of these really compare to what we see in the mammal and avian world. I just don't see it.

I don't have all the answers, but until there is sufficient evidence that suggests otherwise, there is a unique combination of intelligence and complex social behavior that allows for a particular species to possess emotion. I have yet to see it in any reptile.

In all I've read I'd say the highest form of reptilian intelligence is found in crocodilians, and new discoveries about what they are capable of seem to be made all the time.

I recall a documentary that showed some remarkable behavior from a caiman (I think it was "Life of Reptiles"). Said caiman was the only adult left in a pond full of young caiman. She had essentially become their guardian, although most were not actually her babies. Nothing too strange there as crocodilians will protect young that are not their own, but her staying there while all the other females left was certainly strange.

It had parallels to the behavior of varous birds where one individual will remain to look after the young of many parents. The most amazing part came next though, when the pond got low. The adult caiman left the pond one night to seek a new, fuller water hole. Incredibly the young followed her out of the safety of the water and onto a large expanse of dry land. For some time they travelled. The adult was a good deal faster, but she would routinely stop, appearing to "wait" for the young to catch up. Eventually she led them to a new water hole.

Evidence of emotion? No. But behavioral complexity, even "thinking" rivaling the so-called "higher" animals? Perhaps so.

So I do think studying the limits and complexity of reptilian behavior is quite a worthy cause. Even if they are not capable of feeling things in a way that a bird or mammal might, I think it's fair to say there could be many surprises inside their heads as to what they are capable of.

[StudentoReptile]

Could be explained as such: while yes, the young caiman weren't her own, and therefore she had no obligation to further her own genetic material, the adult lone female may simply have been doing what she could to preserve/further the success of her species in general...which is why animals exist in the first place.

Mind you, do not be disillusioned into thinking that she was making these choices consciously. I would wager a lot was instinct, as was the young's action to follow her (self-preservation?).

[Ryodraco]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

Could be explained as such: while yes, the young caiman weren't her own, and therefore she had no obligation to further her own genetic material, the adult lone female may simply have been doing what she could to preserve/further the success of her species in general...which is why animals exist in the first place.

It's been my impression that the majority of animal behavior doesn't care much about the survival of a species in general, but the individual's own genetic material or closely related material (albeit there are many exceptions). It's why lion males who take over prides will kill or drive away all the young from the previous male.

Mind you, do not be disillusioned into thinking that she was making these choices consciously. I would wager a lot was instinct, as was the young's action to follow her (self-preservation?).

A lot certainly was instinct, but if any of it wasn't instinct it still shows the amazing things the reptile mind might be capable of.

[MH4C]

Sorry for bumping up this 3 month old topic, but as a neuroscientist I find the topic of 'awareness/emotion' in all animals interesting, and as a snake keeper especially in snakes. The whole problem with thinking your snake is happy/sad or any other human emotion is that we project our own view of an experience on the snake. When your snake, or any other animal for that matter, is happily dozing away after eating a meal, we would call it content with it's position, because that is what we would be when placed in that exact position.
We don't know what, or even if, an animal feels the same way. Only for mammals we have an indication that something is going on at the emotional level, as extensive research has been done on brain activity during 'emotional' tasks or settings like relapse to an addicted state in rats or social interaction by rats that have been made 'depressed'. There are even what you could call 'clinical symptoms' for these conditions, which don't diverge that far from what we see in addicted or depressed humans.

To my knowledge there have not been any studies regarding emotional awareness or pathological emotional states in reptiles, however, my knowledge on this is still limited (thanks falconeer999 for the website...will be spending quite some time there ). What I do know is that many reptiles can learn and that snakes, widely regarded as the simplest of reptiles, can be trained to recognize spatial cues and efficiently navigate 3D space. This research group trained cornsnakes on in a round chamber with 8 evenly spaced holes in the floor around the rim. 7 of these holes were cover from underneath so the snake could not climb in, but the cover was only visible when the snake reached the hole, and a white card was placed on one side of the chamber. similar setups have also been widely used with spatial recognition training in mice and rats this is generally called the 'Barnes maze'. After training (placing the snake in the maze in the same orientation each time, leaving the same hole as an escape hole) the snakes became more efficient and goal-directed towards the escape hole, showing they can recognize environmental ques to efficiently navigate a familiar environment.

Although this doesn't answer anything about the question 'do reptiles have emotions or feelings' it shows that they have a complex brain which can learn and integrate somatosensory and behavioural patterns. Who knows what else we can learn about reptiles and cognition. I'll keep digging, this is pretty interesting stuff and I didn't know there was this much research about it out there, and let you guys know if I find something worthwhile to maybe answer this ever ongoing discussion .

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by MH4C

Sorry for bumping up this 3 month old topic, but as a neuroscientist I find the topic of 'awareness/emotion' in all animals interesting, and as a snake keeper especially in snakes. The whole problem with thinking your snake is happy/sad or any other human emotion is that we project our own view of an experience on the snake. When your snake, or any other animal for that matter, is happily dozing away after eating a meal, we would call it content with it's position, because that is what we would be when placed in that exact position.
We don't know what, or even if, an animal feels the same way. Only for mammals we have an indication that something is going on at the emotional level, as extensive research has been done on brain activity during 'emotional' tasks or settings like relapse to an addicted state in rats or social interaction by rats that have been made 'depressed'. There are even what you could call 'clinical symptoms' for these conditions, which don't diverge that far from what we see in addicted or depressed humans.

To my knowledge there have not been any studies regarding emotional awareness or pathological emotional states in reptiles, however, my knowledge on this is still limited (thanks falconeer999 for the website...will be spending quite some time there ). What I do know is that many reptiles can learn and that snakes, widely regarded as the simplest of reptiles, can be trained to recognize spatial cues and efficiently navigate 3D space. This research group trained cornsnakes on in a round chamber with 8 evenly spaced holes in the floor around the rim. 7 of these holes were cover from underneath so the snake could not climb in, but the cover was only visible when the snake reached the hole, and a white card was placed on one side of the chamber. similar setups have also been widely used with spatial recognition training in mice and rats this is generally called the 'Barnes maze'. After training (placing the snake in the maze in the same orientation each time, leaving the same hole as an escape hole) the snakes became more efficient and goal-directed towards the escape hole, showing they can recognize environmental ques to efficiently navigate a familiar environment.

Although this doesn't answer anything about the question 'do reptiles have emotions or feelings' it shows that they have a complex brain which can learn and integrate somatosensory and behavioural patterns. Who knows what else we can learn about reptiles and cognition. I'll keep digging, this is pretty interesting stuff and I didn't know there was this much research about it out there, and let you guys know if I find something worthwhile to maybe answer this ever ongoing discussion .

You make some good solid points.

I got some resources some months ago for this thread that I haven't quite sifted through yet. I'll post them when I do.


Without that experiment on corn snakes we all knew they have behaviour patterns. Some snakes learn that when their door or tub is opened that food comes from that opening. I would suggest that this is a pattern with them being familiar with it.

I do have a further question about the experiment you mentioned. Did they sterilize or make an attempt to remove the smell of each snake after trial? It could be presumed that the snakes followed the scent of another one through possibly for mating purposes even. If you have the report I'd be interested in reading it.

[bcr226]

Do snakes have emotions? I believe they do. They may not be able to convey their emotions with us in a manner we understand but let's look at a few points.

1. It has been proven that snakes have memory. Tests show that snakes can recognize duplicate structure on sight without input from smell.

2. Snakes are curious animals. They will investigate new things and explore things unknown to them. I see this if I change up or add something to any of our enclosures.

3. Snakes process information. It may be basic information but they do it and they learn from it. Case in point, teaching a snake to recognize rats as food over mice.

Some of our snakes react differently to different people in a consistent manner. One of our ball pythons will curl up under my shirt and stay there for hours while this same one will constantly cruise around on my wife trying to get into trouble. This shows at least to a minor degree a level of recognition of different people.

So, the basis of developing emotions is certainly there. Are they there? I only have my own observations which can be interpreted in various ways.

Our BCI breeding pair definitely have a bond of some degree. The male does not like the female being out of his sight. He will actively look for her until he can see her again. He'll become tense and agitated, not aggressive in any way but there is definitely a change in posture and stress. When he sees her, he relaxes.

But, that's observation. How does one test for emotion outside of observation?

No matter what, we're dealing with base level intelligence and mental activity. We know that most if not all animals have at least one emotion which is fear. How do we identify other emotions?

I'm game to experiment on this with the caveat that I will not harm or intentionally cause fear in any of the test subjects. But again, how do you test for it?