Interesting new whole prey item...

[formica]

evolution is a random system, operating within a random system - it may appear ordered in the time frame that humans are able to observe, but it is not actually ordered at all

remember Entropy, all things move from Order, to Chaos, evolution is bound by the law of entropy just as everything else is from particals to humans to solar systems.

that said, we are treading very close to semantics here - some meanings of the word Evolution could be said to indicate that it is not random, for eg when humans catalog the evolution of a particular species into a list, however thats half the problem that both myself and smy where eluding to in our previous posts, human perspective on what is useful, positive, negative and beneficial are of no consequence to evolution

[infernalis]

We are NOT going to entertain ANY creationism vs evolution discussions on THIS board.

[KORBIN5895]

But we will openly discuss the theory of evolution?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

But we will openly discuss the theory of evolution?

I do believe that the forum rules say no politics or religion.

I don't recall the rules saying "no evolution"

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I do believe that the forum rules say no politics or religion.

I don't recall the rules saying "no evolution"

Evolution vs creationism doesn't have to be about religion. Although creationism can be attributed to certain religions such as Islam or Christianity, the general idea behind the debate is whether life was created or whether life evolved. You don't need to be religious to believe that life was created by a sentient being.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by formica

evolution is a random system, operating within a random system - it may appear ordered in the time frame that humans are able to observe, but it is not actually ordered at all

remember Entropy, all things move from Order, to Chaos, evolution is bound by the law of entropy just as everything else is from particals to humans to solar systems.

that said, we are treading very close to semantics here - some meanings of the word Evolution could be said to indicate that it is not random, for eg when humans catalog the evolution of a particular species into a list, however thats half the problem that both myself and smy where eluding to in our previous posts, human perspective on what is useful, positive, negative and beneficial are of no consequence to evolution

I agree that we are treading close to semantics. I think we all agree the mutations are random in itself, however when the people in this thread say that evolution is not random, they are referring to the driving force behind evolution which is not. The driving force being natural selection which favors better suited genes for certain situations. People are just misinterpreting each other.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by infernalis

I do believe that the forum rules say no politics or religion.

I don't recall the rules saying "no evolution"

So you say that evolution is an actual scientifically proven fact or maybe it is something that takes faith to believe.

[franks]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

No problem at all Franks, sorry if I was harsh, I'm about the most polite guy you'd ever meet in reality, I just am passionate about varanids and varanid husbandry.
I am flabbergasted when I see people in this age of information acting like nobody has ever studied these animals in the wild. Auffenberg took the time to measure every tree, every rock identify every bug and parasite in the study area, dissect 100's of animals at different times of year and did extensive behavioral and dietary studies, so when I see people like formica who act as if nothings been studied and nobody has a clue about the ethology of these animals my head starts to boil. To think that ANYONE would dismiss or neglect the years of hard work and dedication some of the early workers did so they could make wild guesses and stabs in the dark bothers me to no end and I get heated.
I don't suffer fools gladly, and you are obviously not a fool Franks. Thanks for the response.
Best.

Why then is there such a disconnect between the average keeper of varanids, and the real scientific information that exists and is available to them? Is it that the price tag of certain species does not make buyers feel a dire responsibility to properly support their animals? I met Wayne, because I bought a monitor the same time he got his two and he was balls-to-the-wall invested in learning and duplicating whatever he possibly could about the way they want to live life, and I try to keep all of my animals as realistically as possible. Scientific information may be readily available, but there are numerous layers of nonsense that need to be navigated before getting there and I guess I just do not understand why the nonsense has such a strong foothold in the reptile community.

[formica]

Ben you have no right to dismiss peoples questions or opinions and talk down to them, or behave like a school yard bully just because you know a bit more of the alphabet than the other kids.

You have no right to call someone a fool because they have a diffrent opinion to your own, espcially when that opinion is based on sound scientific principals, you cannot prove to me that UV is not essential, you cannot prove to me that Dormancy is not essential, you cannot prove to me that there are no Parasites alien to the savannahs of Africa which could kill a monitor - there is far more evidence to suggest that all of these things are important to one degree or another, than there is evidence to suggest that they arnt relevant or worth discussing.

You display the typical dogmatic way of dealing with scientific principals that leads to the exact kind of nonsense you claim to be trying to do away with.

I am no fool Ben, and it is a shame you are so wrapped up in your own ego that you cannot bring yourself to discuss anything you dont agree with, like a mature adult. The only people you impress, by behaving and talking this way, are those who have the same agenda as your own - i'm sure Korbin will be along shortly to prove my point.

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by franks

Why then is there such a disconnect between the average keeper of varanids, and the real scientific information that exists and is available to them? Is it that the price tag of certain species does not make buyers feel a dire responsibility to properly support their animals? I met Wayne, because I bought a monitor the same time he got his two and he was balls-to-the-wall invested in learning and duplicating whatever he possibly could about the way they want to live life, and I try to keep all of my animals as realistically as possible. Scientific information may be readily available, but there are numerous layers of nonsense that need to be navigated before getting there and I guess I just do not understand why the nonsense has such a strong foothold in the reptile community.

You bring up some solid questions here franks, I don't know why there is such a disconnect between keepers these days and the information available to them. MY fist guess is lazyness pure and simple. But having spent decades working in the animal industry and being around animal people I think that there is a larger psychological issue at play, meaning almost everyone involved with closely working with animals thinks they are the "true" savior of animals and the only one who has gained insight and that their way is the only way. Most animal people are animal "people" BECAUSE they are not "people" people.

To me there are no layers of nonsense to navigate through the academic literature, it's all good fun and learning as far as I can see. The fun comes in balancing the info against other sources, testing out the theory's and finding ways to APPLY the knowledge. All of this amazing groundwork has been done for us, now we get to do the fun part of making the information applicable to each of our situations and spreading the knowledge.

Unfortunately you are right about the price tag aspect. I've been trying for years to get people to think about reptile keeping in the same way as saltwater aquarium keeping. Meaning you don't go buy an expensive saltwater fish, THEN set up the tank and do the research! Plus when people think of getting into salt water aquariums they know you need three things: Money, Knowledge, time.
With reptiles it's buy the animal first, then the enclosure, then MAYBE learn about them, but most likely just get on a forum and tell everyone how smart you are and how great your one animal is doing...till it dies and you disappear. Precisely why I support a complete ban on the importation of exotic reptiles and a strict permitting system for those species already established.

The nonsense has such a strong foothold because of people like Formica, here is a guy with NO EXPERIENCE, spewing forth mass nonsense before he's done anything or learned anything! And naive people don't know better than to think that just because someone posts a lot they may not actually have any experience.
Imagine being involved in ANY activity...say pole vaulting for example, do you think that when you start you will have the same approach to pole vaulting as you would when you have 1 year experience, or 3 years experience...how about when you've pole vaulted all over the world, competed in contests against other vaulters seen and learned from how others do it, coached a team of vaulters etc..do you think after years of doing it you would have the same knowledge and approach you did when you first started?????
BUT in reptiles, experience and success don't seem to matter, just who can beat his chest and yell the longest (not the loudest!)

And sadly..we do not value intelligent discourse, my guess is it has something to do with insecurity...who knows? Thanks for the discussion.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

So you say that evolution is an actual scientifically proven fact or maybe it is something that takes faith to believe.

Not here... not now...

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by formica

Ben you have no right to dismiss peoples questions or opinions and talk down to them, or behave like a school yard bully just because you know a bit more of the alphabet than the other kids.

You have no right to call someone a fool because they have a diffrent opinion to your own, espcially when that opinion is based on sound scientific principals, you cannot prove to me that UV is not essential, you cannot prove to me that Dormancy is not essential, you cannot prove to me that there are no Parasites alien to the savannahs of Africa which could kill a monitor - there is far more evidence to suggest that all of these things are important to one degree or another, than there is evidence to suggest that they arnt relevant or worth discussing.

You display the typical dogmatic way of dealing with scientific principals that leads to the exact kind of nonsense you claim to be trying to do away with.

I am no fool Ben, and it is a shame you are so wrapped up in your own ego that you cannot bring yourself to discuss anything you dont agree with, like a mature adult. The only people you impress, by behaving and talking this way, are those who have the same agenda as your own - i'm sure Korbin will be along shortly to prove my point.

What point? Also what is my agenda? I don't even have a monitor.

[formica]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

NO EXPERIENCE

nonsense, i have 20 years experience keeping reptiles, infact.

Oh and how many Savs did you say you had raised to adulthood? was it...none?

You say that proof of your success comes from breeding monitors, and yet zoo's like the Bronx have successfully bred monitors, but you say that they do not know correct monitor care practices? so what should I believe? perhaps I'll just keep asking questions, and you can stick with dogma.

I've never know anyone to get so upset about people questioning things, you have attached your ego to this topic in a way which is not helpful to anyone, espcially considering all the questions are based on the writing of people you claim back up your own assertions.

but once again you are just babbling and waving your ego about, refusing to actually engage in a real discussion, your only way of dealing with it is with personal attacks, over and over again.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by formica

nonsense, i have 20 years experience keeping reptiles, infact.

Oh and how many Savs did you say you had raised to adulthood? was it...none?

You say that proof of your success comes from breeding monitors, and yet zoo's like the Bronx have successfully bred monitors, but you say that they do not know correct monitor care practices? so what should I believe? perhaps I'll just keep asking questions, and you can stick with dogma.

I've never know anyone to get so upset about people questioning things, you have attached your ego to this topic in a way which is not helpful to anyone, espcially considering all the questions are based on the writing of people you claim back up their own assertions.

but once again you are just babbling and waving your ego about, refusing to actually engage in a real discussion, your only way of dealing with it is with personal attacks, over and over again.

I'm pretty sure the "breeding" breeding you are speaking about was actually an imported gravid female.

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I'm pretty sure the "breeding" breeding you are speaking about was actually an imported gravid female.

If we're talking Bronx zoo here they have had success with mertensi, when Sam Lee was head of reptiles. Long term the Bronx has a poor record of success with varanids. What Bobs report found was that overall their husbandry was seriously lacking. Looking at their new tree monitor exhibits I have to wonder if they've learned their lesson or not?

Not that it matters but for the record I have raised exanthematicus to adulthood, and my experiences were written up and published.
You can see pics of one of my exanthematicus in Mark Bayless's Savannah book, and I shared my husbandry notes and records with Mark for that book.
Mark and I also wrote a book on red tailed boas and we were working on two other books on monitors and monitor husbandry at the time of his death. Maybe someday I'll finish them...who knows?
Best.