"Best trained Savannah monitor"

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I've seen this lame argument used to support the WC industry before, but never from a reasonably educated person. I am, to be perfectly honest, shocked and surprised. Are you seriously unable to determine the difference between these two scenarios?

1. Remove half a dozen individuals from the wild, breed them and then continue to supply the hobby through generation after generation of hundreds (if not thousands) of CB offspring, without the need to remove more animals out of the wild.

2. Continue to remove thousands of animals out of the wild, year after year after year, with a large number dying in transport and few surviving after they reach the end user.

The other factor I haven't mentioned is that CB animals fare better in captivity, so there's a higher survival rate than with WC.

Well I was actually implying number 1, not a full blown import/export industry to the pet trade , just that the CB has to start somewhere and not removing any wild animals wouldn't allow for it. (I tried to hint at that with the permit thing). I guess it also has application in zoo's for educational purposes, or for introducing variety into the gene pool, surely half a dozen would possibly show genetic defects after that much inbreeding. Again, I was didn't intend to use that as a reason to support a full blown WC trade, just the literal meaning of taking a wild caught animal into captivity.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Well I was actually implying number 1, not a full blown import/export industry to the pet trade , just that the CB has to start somewhere

You may have missed this bit from my earlier post:

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I've been on these monitor forums for over 12 years and every year there's a dozen new keepers who post about how they are going to 'break the mould' and be the pioneers of producing CB Indo monitors of the indicus complex, particularly doreanus and melinus. Eventually they disappear from the forums without achieving that goal. The imports keep coming in. There's a reason CB aren't available: No one succeeds in breeding them and if they do, it's a one or two clutch run max.

They ALL say that they want to buy WC so they can start producing CB. They ALL fail.

At some point, someone has to say 'enough is enough'.

[crocdoc]

There's another factor here: As long as WC are available, there's less incentive to breed them in captivity. It's not a coincidence that so many Australian reptiles are available CB - Australia closed the doors to exports many years ago, so there's been strong incentive to breed the few that have been smuggled out.

If Indonesia banned exports, there'd be a lot of pressure on the remaining WC Indonesian monitors already in captivity in the US to be bred. If they failed, then people should accept that failure and those animals would no longer be available in the hobby. There is no universal law stating that every species has to be available to the hobby. Continued importation of WC animals that no one is able to breed is not the answer - I think we're beyond the disposable pet stage in our way of thinking. Or should be, anyway.

[smy_749]

I'm not referring to myself, I don't even think most of the animals being bred should be bred. So many people breeding, and no place for the animals to go because everyone has money on their mind. For me its about admiring the animals, not about producing the coolest morphs or making money. I don't breed anything just for the record, nor do I plan to. I don't even own an incubator :-P and if I had produced eggs unexpectedly, unless it was something rare which I don't own anyways, I wouldn't bother incubating the eggs so the babies could be sold to 15 year olds because I can't afford to feed/keep them all.

I see your point, but was referring to WC for people like yourself, not like me.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

There's another factor here: As long as WC are available, there's less incentive to breed them in captivity. It's not a coincidence that so many Australian reptiles are available CB - Australia closed the doors to exports many years ago, so there's been strong incentive to breed the few that have been smuggled out.

If Indonesia banned exports, there'd be a lot of pressure on the remaining WC Indonesian monitors already in captivity in the US to be bred. If they failed, then people should accept that failure and those animals would no longer be available in the hobby. There is no universal law stating that every species has to be available to the hobby. Continued importation of WC animals that no one is able to breed is not the answer - I think we're beyond the disposable pet stage in our way of thinking. Or should be, anyway.

Yea I guess. I guess I'm being subborn because some of the species I wish I could keep aren't available cb just yet :S

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Yea I guess. I guess I'm being subborn because some of the species I wish I could keep aren't available cb just yet :S

I understand where you're coming from, but the problem is that 'just yet' assumes it will happen. If it hasn't happened yet, there's no guarantee it will. Not the way things are at the moment. People need incentive and a ban on imports would be just that.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

I understand where you're coming from, but the problem is that 'just yet' assumes it will happen. If it hasn't happened yet, there's no guarantee it will. Not the way things are at the moment. People need incentive and a ban on imports would be just that.

I'll admit, I'm guilty of buying imports occasionally, when I see something and can't resist the urge (I know I know) . HOWEVER, I would support a ban on imports 100%, because like you said, I think it would cause people to try really hard to provide proper conditions in order to captive breed them, instead of putting 2 of them on a paper towel on his book shelf and hoping the magic happens. 'This species lives in burrows in the wild, so this is optimal' really drives me nuts. If you can't afford it, or this is the most profitable efficient way to breed them, just say so. But in the wild they aren't trapped in that burrow forever.....

Back on topic, the other big reason is although I'd like to see all sorts of species in my home, I'd much rather have them exist in general.

[SnakeyJay]

Well I've been sucked into a conversation about training and "taming" reptiles... Varanids are a part if the conversation and this person believes all her animals are tame, come when called and are potty trained apparently.. All the while refusing to believe that it could be a food response etc... I've no experience with varanids so far but even I know that this is far fetched

[stephanbakir]

You can potty train them pretty easily. It's called having a big water bowl...
Regarding the taming... you aren't taming them, just like you aren't taming snakes. You are building trust, thats all it is. If it knows you aren't food, and it knows you aren't a threat... its more or less indifferent to your existence, the fact that you're bringing it food is a bonus, but it won't like you or be your friend.

[smy_749]

people love companionship, cats and dogs arent for everyone. So naturally some people turn to reptiles. Also, humans have a tendency to believe what they wish was reality as opposed to reality. Even the potty training can be debatable, some of the people here say its due to dehydration with some species. I dont think infernalis's use the waterbowl for bathroom purposes. However I know that roughnecks in general do. Hungry translates to coming when called out of love and desire for compassion, using the bathroom in a specific place translates to potty training as if youve done something (I guess leopard geckos are also potty trained seeing how they tend to defecate in one corner consistently), and sluggishness due to feeding garbage and probably chocolate to your savannah (because you love him and he probably enjoys the treat) translates to tame and enjoys watching tv with you. Its a damn lizard, there has not been thousands of years of domestication which is what was needed for dogs/cats/horses and so on. Dont waste your breath in argument with him/her.

[SnakeyJay]

Oh I've already given up... I don't mind a good debate on different views but I ain't take plain stubbornness. She keep them on Auboise anyway and preaches to all the newbs in the group about how it's best for them... So it's already a losing battle..

[infernalis]

Here is the pattern as I see it.

The general public have seen nothing but poorly kept lethargic animals, Youtube reinforces this with a never ending sea of "chunky" animals walking around in apartments, and sleeping on the owner's chest, etc..

This is perpetuated further by countless pet shops that have also never seen a fit varanid behave when it's got heat.

To make things worse, so many (well intended, yet ignorant) actually DESIRE a slow monitor.

[SnakeyJay]

I think that's the issue.. People want a slow easy to care for animal... Not realising that this isn't a tame sav/monitor, it's a sick animal..

[V87]

Originally Posted by Snakey-Jay

I think that's the issue.. People want a slow easy to care for animal... Not realising that this isn't a tame sav/monitor, it's a sick animal..

I'm just going to add to this convo by saying I've seen plenty of fit and healthy heated and no over weight monitors that are very tolerate of being out and handled by ther owners .....

Just saying

Also was meant to quote Wayne on this also .... Not just snakey

I have seen plenty of tolerant monitors not trained tolerant ... They are smart and learn if u find a good routine they can become tractable not all but some ....

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by V87

I'm just going to add to this convo by saying I've seen plenty of fit and healthy heated and no over weight monitors that are very tolerate of being out and handled by ther owners .....

Just saying

Also was meant to quote Wayne on this also .... Not just snakey

I have seen plenty of tolerant monitors not trained tolerant ... They are smart and learn if u find a good routine they can become tractable not all but some ....

Yea I agree, but I think the difference is level of activity while being tolerant. The real question is have you ever seen them sit on a mans lap and relax for long periods of time or something? Some of these 'tame' animals don't even squirm to get a proper footing or adjust their balance when being held. Would prob fall right out of a tree if you put him in one