S.b. 310

[hellosugaree]

(L) "Restricted snake" means any of the following:
(1) All of the following constricting snakes that are twelve feet or longer:
(a) Green anacondas;
(b) Yellow anacondas;
(c) Reticulated pythons;
(d) Indian pythons;
(e) Burmese pythons;
(f) North African rock pythons;
(g) South African rock pythons;
(h) Amethystine pythons.
(2) Species of the following families:
(a) Atractaspididae;
(b) Elapidae;
(c) Viperidae.
(3) Boomslang snakes;
(4) Twig snakes.

Also regarding permitting it looks like you only need to apply for one permit no matter how many restricted snakes you possess. And regarding the comment about them being lumped with lions and tigers: although lions and tigers are included in sections of the bill, they are defined and addressed separately from restricted snakes--the same permits and restrictions do not apply to cheetahs and restricted snakes...

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by hellosugaree

Also regarding permitting it looks like you only need to apply for one permit no matter how many restricted snakes you possess. And regarding the comment about them being lumped with lions and tigers: although lions and tigers are included in sections of the bill, they are defined and addressed separately from restricted snakes--the same permits and restrictions do not apply to cheetahs and restricted snakes...

I apologize for any inaccuracies in my earlier statements. I know this bill has been amended more than once during its history; some proposed amendments were accepted while some were rejected. I admit that I haven't been keeping up with the current version that actually passed, and was probably channeling a lot from the earlier drafts. I know a lot of changes USARK suggested were rejected, and that probably contributed to my misconceptions as well.

I still maintain that it would have been better if they had just left reptiles out of it altogether, and it will no positive effect on the herp community in Ohio, or elsewhere.

[jarich]

Ill be honest, I think it will have about as much effect on things as the laws in place have, which is pretty much none. There are all kinds of illegal animals sold on CL in NYC everyday. I mean, the cops have much better things to do than bother checking on people's snakes. It will allow them the prosecution rights for problem cases that come up, however; which I think is a good thing. There are a lot of people with snakes they shouldnt have, just like there are a lot of people with guns they shouldnt have, or knives they shouldnt have or blah blah blah.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by jarich

Ill be honest, I think it will have about as much effect on things as the laws in place have, which is pretty much none. There are all kinds of illegal animals sold on CL in NYC everyday. -- - There are a lot of people with snakes they shouldnt have, just like there are a lot of people with guns they shouldnt have, or knives they shouldnt have or blah blah blah.

Of course...those people aren't going to be effected at all. Its the large-scale collectors and breeders, rescues and shelters, etc.; i.e. the good, responsible hobbyists that are going to suffer from this kind of stuff. Eventually, it can affect shows and expos, etc. [Admittedly, I'm not an Ohio-resident, so I don't know what the herp community is like up there, I'm just making a general argument.]

[jarich]

Ya me either, and I think that the expos are the place it will really play out. The breeders and rescues/shelters have to have insurance already, so hopefully it shouldnt really affect them too much. Aside from more paperwork that is. The government does love their paperwork....

By the way, "I love steak but dont want to be slapped in the face with it"! Awesome, might have to steal that.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by jarich

By the way, "I love steak but dont want to be slapped in the face with it"! Awesome, might have to steal that.

Ironically, someone said that to me several years ago, when I was being an arsehole know-it-all on another forum.

[hellosugaree]

Originally Posted by jarich

Ya me either, and I think that the expos are the place it will really play out. The breeders and rescues/shelters have to have insurance already, so hopefully it shouldnt really affect them too much. Aside from more paperwork that is. The government does love their paperwork....

By the way, "I love steak but dont want to be slapped in the face with it"! Awesome, might have to steal that.

How many expos have people selling giant constrictors over 12 feet? In such cases, it such a bad thing that they or their potential buyer have to fill out a little extra paperwork and show that they are fit to keep an animal of that size? I love snakes as much as the next guy, but quite frankly not everyone is fit to keep a gigantic or poisonous snake or alligator, etc. These aren't small house kittens... Some of the application requirements are pretty reasonable, like requiring you to name a vet who will treat the snake if it has problems. What do you do when your snake gets sick and nobody wants to deal with a 21 foot, 50lb snake? A lot of people don't think about these things before they get these snakes. If this deters even 5% of the normal load of unfit retards that buy or sell these snakes without being fully prepared then it's not such a bad thing. Serious breeders and keepers will fill out a little extra paperwork...

Speaking of expos and shows, some reptile shows are pretty disgusting anyway and many (not all) people are only out to make a buck and don't give half a **** about what happens to the animal after they get paid for it. I've seen someone gladly sell a snake to someone who requested asked for the cheapest snake they had and was carrying it's future home: A tiny cracked tank with a piece of astroturf and a very old, used heat rock. The seller happily produced a $5 snake, no questions asked, no suggestions made. I'm also sure plenty of retics and anacondas have been bought from people who sold them to customers one could easily figure out were not fit if they bothered to have a five minute conversation with them. There are plenty of responsible breeders and keepers out there, but this "the very few bad keepers ruin it for everybody" business that everyone keeps regurgitating is probably a bit understated. Irresponsible keeping of snakes and other reptiles in the industry is much more common than most people are willing to admit. They are reptiles, but they are also living animals. They deserve respect and proper care. They can feel pain, stress, and can definitely suffer and often do. This happens with any type of animal kept as pets, but I think it is more commonly something that the reptile community tends to look past. The laws may not change anything on their own, but my hope is that they will have the following impact: Rather than bitching about how the "minority" ruins it for everyone and fighting for complete lack of regulation of any aspect of the community whatsoever, maybe people the community as a whole will start taking action within their own group so to speak. When are the keepers, breeders, and people who host shows going to start taking some responsibility for what goes on inside? If we raise our standards and hold people accountable who don't follow acceptable practices, maybe things will turn around and we don't have to worry about someone else taking away privileges from us. Law enforcement doesn't have the resources to enforce these laws anyway, and even if they did, it probably won't make much of a dent. Why not take the stance that the laws are designed with a good purpose in mind, and try to fulfill that purpose on our own. The only way things can be improved are from the inside out. If we improve things ourselves from the inside, people will stop trying to fix them from the outside. If everyone has the "it's not me so it's not my business and not my responsibility" attitude every time they see something wrong, then your friends in the government are going to make it their responsibility. Too many people are comfortable with observing something from a breeder or vendor that they know is wrong, yet 5 minutes later buying a snake from them because they have the one the person wants or the best deal... Even a keeper who only ever purchases one reptile in their life and does nothing else in the community has the power to make things better or worse.

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by hellosugaree

How many expos have people selling giant constrictors over 12 feet? In such cases, it such a bad thing that they or their potential buyer have to fill out a little extra paperwork and show that they are fit to keep an animal of that size? I love snakes as much as the next guy, but quite frankly not everyone is fit to keep a gigantic or poisonous snake or alligator, etc. These aren't small house kittens... Some of the application requirements are pretty reasonable, like requiring you to name a vet who will treat the snake if it has problems. What do you do when your snake gets sick and nobody wants to deal with a 21 foot, 50lb snake? A lot of people don't think about these things before they get these snakes. If this deters even 5% of the normal load of unfit retards that buy or sell these snakes without being fully prepared then it's not such a bad thing. Serious breeders and keepers will fill out a little extra paperwork...

Speaking of expos and shows, some reptile shows are pretty disgusting anyway and many (not all) people are only out to make a buck and don't give half a **** about what happens to the animal after they get paid for it. I've seen someone gladly sell a snake to someone who requested asked for the cheapest snake they had and was carrying it's future home: A tiny cracked tank with a piece of astroturf and a very old, used heat rock. The seller happily produced a $5 snake, no questions asked, no suggestions made. I'm also sure plenty of retics and anacondas have been bought from people who sold them to customers one could easily figure out were not fit if they bothered to have a five minute conversation with them. There are plenty of responsible breeders and keepers out there, but this "the very few bad keepers ruin it for everybody" business that everyone keeps regurgitating is probably a bit understated. Irresponsible keeping of snakes and other reptiles in the industry is much more common than most people are willing to admit. They are reptiles, but they are also living animals. They deserve respect and proper care. They can feel pain, stress, and can definitely suffer and often do. This happens with any type of animal kept as pets, but I think it is more commonly something that the reptile community tends to look past. The laws may not change anything on their own, but my hope is that they will have the following impact: Rather than bitching about how the "minority" ruins it for everyone and fighting for complete lack of regulation of any aspect of the community whatsoever, maybe people the community as a whole will start taking action within their own group so to speak. When are the keepers, breeders, and people who host shows going to start taking some responsibility for what goes on inside? If we raise our standards and hold people accountable who don't follow acceptable practices, maybe things will turn around and we don't have to worry about someone else taking away privileges from us. Law enforcement doesn't have the resources to enforce these laws anyway, and even if they did, it probably won't make much of a dent. Why not take the stance that the laws are designed with a good purpose in mind, and try to fulfill that purpose on our own. The only way things can be improved are from the inside out. If we improve things ourselves from the inside, people will stop trying to fix them from the outside. If everyone has the "it's not me so it's not my business and not my responsibility" attitude every time they see something wrong, then your friends in the government are going to make it their responsibility. Too many people are comfortable with observing something from a breeder or vendor that they know is wrong, yet 5 minutes later buying a snake from them because they have the one the person wants or the best deal... Even a keeper only ever purchases one reptile in their life and does nothing else in the community has the power to make things better or worse.

All the long posts having been said, the govt will not stop until all herps are banned. I don't trust the govt to stop there. They will keep marching on.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by hellosugaree

Speaking of expos and shows, some reptile shows are pretty disgusting anyway and many (not all) people are only out to make a buck and don't give half a **** about what happens to the animal after they get paid for it. I've seen someone gladly sell a snake to someone who requested asked for the cheapest snake they had and was carrying it's future home: A tiny cracked tank with a piece of astroturf and a very old, used heat rock. The seller happily produced a $5 snake, no questions asked, no suggestions made. I'm also sure plenty of retics and anacondas have been bought from people who sold them to customers one could easily figure out were not fit if they bothered to have a five minute conversation with them. There are plenty of responsible breeders and keepers out there, but this "the very few bad keepers ruin it for everybody" business that everyone keeps regurgitating is probably a bit understated. Irresponsible keeping of snakes and other reptiles in the industry is much more common than most people are willing to admit.

I'm not denying there aren't irresponsible people in the industry. There certainly are, from the top rungs all the way down to the craigslist swappers. But what is the percentage/ratio of the goats versus the sheep? The only way is go and inspect the collections of every single reptile keeper in the entire country. Obviously, this is impractical for a number of reasons, so we can only guestimate and assume based on our own experiences and observations. I would still maintain that the majority of those who keep reptiles are fairly responsible, and the negligent parties are in the minority.

The laws may not change anything on their own, but my hope is that they will have the following impact: Rather than bitching about how the "minority" ruins it for everyone and fighting for complete lack of regulation of any aspect of the community whatsoever, maybe people the community as a whole will start taking action within their own group so to speak. When are the keepers, breeders, and people who host shows going to start taking some responsibility for what goes on inside? If we raise our standards and hold people accountable who don't follow acceptable practices, maybe things will turn around and we don't have to worry about someone else taking away privileges from us.

I heartily agree. There are a lot of people on many levels already doing what they can to implement exactly what you are suggesting. But it will only be effective if EVERYONE does it. Unfortunately, this is not the case. There are still many of people out there who don't give a flip about any of this, and are only out for padding their pockets. What do we do about THOSE people? We can't make laws that are discriminatory (okay, it applies to that guy, but not this guy, and who decides that anyway?

As noble as this effort is, it is too little too late. You are correct in that the reptile industry as a whole has more or less brought this upon ourselves. We got so caught up in the craze of breeding morphs, and importing new, weird stuff in, and over-breeding/importing the cheap/common stuff just to cover our overhead and make ends meet, and we didn't think so longterm.

Law enforcement doesn't have the resources to enforce these laws anyway, and even if they did, it probably won't make much of a dent. Why not take the stance that the laws are designed with a good purpose in mind, and try to fulfill that purpose on our own.

Again, part of it is that its little too late. And another part is that USARK and PIJAC has tried to work with these lawmakers. The standard for keeping they established for NCARK they have tried to implement for other states. But govt officials don't or will not listen, and are more concerned with being influenced with the NGOs.

The only way things can be improved are from the inside out. If we improve things ourselves from the inside, people will stop trying to fix them from the outside. If everyone has the "it's not me so it's not my business and not my responsibility" attitude every time they see something wrong, then your friends in the government are going to make it their responsibility.

Again, this is only effective if EVERYONE is onboard. When you figure out a way to get all the scumbags of the industry to stop thinking about their pocketbooks for one minute and consider helping out the rest of the hobby, then you feel free to share that secret with the rest of us.

Too many people are comfortable with observing something from a breeder or vendor that they know is wrong, yet 5 minutes later buying a snake from them because they have the one the person wants or the best deal... Even a keeper who only ever purchases one reptile in their life and does nothing else in the community has the power to make things better or worse.

Once more, I'm right there with ya. Just as sellers and dealers need to start self-policing and screening customers, consumers should start valuing quality over quantity. You're correct: buyers have the power. We can hit the scumbags where it hurts: their wallets.

[hellosugaree]

Originally Posted by exwizard

All the long posts having been said, the govt will not stop until all herps are banned. I don't trust the govt to stop there. They will keep marching on.

This is paranoid extremist talk. These laws were not thought of solely as a way for some evil villain to stick it to his serfs. Your geckos, bearded dragons, and most of your snakes are safe. Requiring someone to jump through a few hoops to keep a 20 foot snake or an alligator is not particularly unreasonable. Someone didn't just sit down one day and say: "Hmm... what can I take away from people for no reason." When people start releasing their geckos and bearded dragons and they start eating alligators in Florida, then you might have to worry about them too. What do you think is going to happen? They made a permit required to keep a few species of giant constrictors, only after they are OVER 12 FEET, and now they are going to say: "OK we got the giant snakes now let's take away geckos because taking away pets from people for no reason is fun."

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by hellosugaree

This is paranoid extremist talk. These laws were not thought of solely as a way for some evil villain to stick it to his serfs. Your geckos, bearded dragons, and most of your snakes are safe. Requiring someone to jump through a few hoops to keep a 20 foot snake or an alligator is not particularly unreasonable. Someone didn't just sit down one day and say: "Hmm... what can I take away from people for no reason." When people start releasing their geckos and bearded dragons and they start eating alligators in Florida, then you might have to worry about them too. What do you think is going to happen? They made a permit required to keep a few species of giant constrictors, only after they are OVER 12 FEET, and now they are going to say: "OK we got the giant snakes now let's take away geckos because taking away pets from people for no reason is fun."

I would strongly suggest you read this:
This what it has come to… « Student of the Reptile

Then listen to the following podcasts:

The Constrictor Ban 01/25 by Herpin Time | Blog Talk Radio

Reptile Radio Home - Listen to Reptile Radio - 100's of Archived shows available for download

Then go straight to the horse's arse...er...I mean, mouth. Wayne Pacelle, CEO of HSUS:

HSUS podcasts - Humane Talk with Tracie Hotchner : The Humane Society of the United States

Wayne's blog - Wayne Pacelle: A Humane Nation

Look at some of the older posts. HSUS is totally against the ownership of ALL exotic animals, and has been for decades.

Then check out: HumaneWatch to see what they're spending their money on.

[hellosugaree]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

I would strongly suggest you read this:
This what it has come to… « Student of the Reptile

Then listen to the following podcasts:

The Constrictor Ban 01/25 by Herpin Time | Blog Talk Radio

Reptile Radio Home - Listen to Reptile Radio - 100's of Archived shows available for download

Then go straight to the horse's arse...er...I mean, mouth. Wayne Pacelle, CEO of HSUS:

HSUS podcasts - Humane Talk with Tracie Hotchner : The Humane Society of the United States

Wayne's blog - Wayne Pacelle: A Humane Nation

Look at some of the older posts. HSUS is totally against the ownership of ALL exotic animals, and has been for decades.

Then check out: HumaneWatch to see what they're spending their money on.

He said nothing about the human society... He said government... Most of this addresses the humane society.

[StudentoReptile]

Originally Posted by hellosugaree

He said nothing about the human society... He said government... Most of this addresses the humane society.

You apparently did not read it entirely, nor did you listen to any of the podcasts. Andrew Wyatt specifically mentions the HSUS, along with the Defenders of Wildlife and the Nature's Conservancy. If you listen to later Herpin' Time episodes, Andrew Wyatt speaks about the impending SB 310 and HSUS's involvement.
---------------------------------
They tried to pass that H.R. 669 bill back in 2009 that banned all non-native species to the U.S. Get that? That's every animal that is not native to America. What do you think that entails?

They are hitting the easy targets first: big snakes, big cats, large dog breeds, etc. Do you honestly think they're just going to stop at those? Once they've outplayed the "these animals are simply too dangerous for the average person to keep" card, then they'll fall back on: "these animals just have too many specific care requirements for the average person. Most people are not prepared to keep these animals properly, and as a result, too many end up unwanted and dumped off in shelters that are already over-crowded and under-staffed. Animal rescues and shelters have enough on their plate dealing with all the neglected dogs and cats left on their doorstep. They don't have the knowledge, space or man-power to deal with all the unwanted exotic animals that are a result of irresponsible impulse purchases." After all the big, dangerous reptiles are regulated, then they'll probably play up the Salmonella angle again, and try to take away everything else.

This is not just a reptile thing, even though its a little more close to home for most of us and quite honestly, reptiles are an easy target because the general public already has a negative view of them. But this also involves other exotics like sugar gliders, chinchillas, hedgehogs, etc.

Maybe it's "just for fun" as you put it, but it is a campaign against the exotic animal industry as a whole, reptiles included. For whatever reasons they seem to so fervently believe in, these organizations do not want people owning pets. And they will do everything in their power to accomplish that goal.

[StudentoReptile]

People call me and other like-minded extremists, and that we're over-reacting. Well, then if we're wrong, then how come these laws keep popping up left and right?

We're extremists? I say, anyone who says the powers-that-be are going to stop after they're done with the giant snakes...is living under a rock and is frighteningly naive. You need to wake up and keep up to date with what is going on. People like you are part of the the problem, mistakenly believing that "well, its about time they started regulating big snakes. As long as it doesn't directly affect little ole me, whatever."

[hellosugaree]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

People call me and other like-minded extremists, and that we're over-reacting. Well, then if we're wrong, then how come these laws keep popping up left and right?

We're extremists? I say, anyone who says the powers-that-be are going to stop after they're done with the giant snakes...is living under a rock and is frighteningly naive. You need to wake up and keep up to date with what is going on. People like you are part of the the problem, mistakenly believing that "well, its about time they started regulating big snakes. As long as it doesn't directly affect little ole me, whatever."

Your comments are overly pointed.

I never said I supported a federal ban of snakes. I simply said that the Ohio thing did not seem particularly unreasonable. Did you happen to read any of it, or did you simply oppose it because you feel it will lead to unreasonable things later even if it isn't unreasonable to begin with?

I also never said it's about time they started regulating big snakes, I just said I can see where they are coming from when this whole thing got started. There have obviously been problems with them, and even you can't deny that. Opposing legislation that is not unreasonable just because you say it will lead to legislation that is unreasonable is not a very strong argument. Since you seem to be the master of judging naivety, please tell me: is that not naive? How can you expect the other side not to take an all or none approach when that is the same approach you condone? Is that not naive? Furthermore, you previously stated: "I don't see how it is fair to categories leopard geckos, ball pythons and tortoises along with lions, tigers, and bears." Since you brought up the topic of naivety, I find it extremely naive to make this ridiculous conclusion that could not be farther from the truth. If you actually spent 5 minutes reading the bill before jumping to extreme conclusions you might have seen that. Jumping to wild conclusions about things without even making an effort to understand what they are about, in my opinion, fits the definition bill for naive and living under a rock--the very same things you said about me for not virulently opposing something that seems pretty reasonable.