hybridizing / morphs & melanin

BryanB · 12-13-12, 09:20 PM

other than some luck and a lot of time how dose one decide what to breed together to get different hybrids and morphs. Or could some one explain to me how a morph pops up?

StudentoReptile · 12-14-12, 06:36 AM

Hybrid = the breeding of two different species together. Ex: ball python x burmese python = burmball

Intergrade = the breeding of two different subspecies (or localities) together. Ex: a speckled kingsnake to a eastern kingsnake (they are both Lampropeltis getula sp.)

With morphs, you need a little understanding of genetics, how different traits work, etc. I'll let someone who understands that better explain.

BryanB · 12-14-12, 06:53 AM

I get what hybridizing is but why mix specific snakes together do most people just look for a pretty snake nobody else has? I see it as undoing evolution what if it brings out bad traits? Example Africanized bees

BryanB · 12-14-12, 07:22 AM

Oh and I am not looking for an argument just info on something I know very little about

Gregg M · 12-14-12, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanB

I get what hybridizing is but why mix specific snakes together do most people just look for a pretty snake nobody else has? I see it as undoing evolution what if it brings out bad traits? Example Africanized bees

Firstly, any of our captive breeding stock is biologically "dead". They are not part of the evolutionary chain and they are not part of nature anymore. Once you pair animals in captivity, there is no natural selection even if you own 2 snakes from the same locality. It is human selection. Evolution of a species can not be a factor when we are talking about captive animals that are not part of the "natural" world.

As far as hybridization undoing evolution goes, nothing can be further from the truth. Hybridization in the wild happens often and is actually a very big part of evolution.

Look up speciation through hybridization. You will find numerous links and PDF files of actual scientific data and not opinions based on our human "morals"...

As far as Africanized honey bees go, is their overly agressive behavior a bad trait? Well it is for the human or animal that stumbles too close to their hive, but for the bee species, it is a trait that keeps their hive protected. Why do you think the species or hybrid is so successful? It certainly is not a bad trait when it comes to the survival of the species. And that is what evolution is all about. Adopting traits that increase the chances of a species success and survival in the wild. If anything, breeding morphs propagates many more bad traits than hybridization ever could.

Morphs are created when defective genetics are propagated. It can happen in the wild and that is where most morphs originate. Very few just "pop up" in collections. Many of our base morphs were wild caught animals. Many made it to adulthood in the wild. These defective genes are in wild populations mostley in the form of heterozygous animals that carry the gene but do not show it. Usually the visual morphs stray too far from the natural surroundings and the visual morph animals are picked off. That is unless we are talking about gene morphs like bells phase lace monitors. The bells phase lives along side normal lace monitors in the wild. Some gene mutations work out well in the wild. Sometimes even better. This may be how some subspecies come about but it is a very rare occurance.

BryanB · 12-14-12, 08:32 AM

Ok I see what you are saying but to expand on the human side of things hypothetically speeking if you want a purple corn snake you can't take a red one and a blue one and breed them you must find the purple gene and that is where I get lost, how do you do that?

infernalis · 12-14-12, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanB

Ok I see what you are saying but to expand on the human side of things hypothetically speeking if you want a purple corn snake you can't take a red one and a blue one and breed them you must find the purple gene and that is where I get lost, how do you do that?

The genetic defects we are talking about almost always describe a lack of a certain colour.

In other words, remove the yellow pigment from a green snake, you should see blue, remove the blue pigment you see a visual yellow.

The one exception is Melanistic, melanistic means excessive melanin, or black pigment.

A "snow" lacks all pigment.

Since a red snake is usually a brown snake missing the yellow and blue pigments, simply breeding a blue snake to a red snake will not produce a purple snake.

Quote:

Melanins compose a class of compounds that serve predominantly as a pigment. These pigments are derivatives of the amino acid tyrosine. There are at least three types of naturally occurring melanins: eumelanin, pheomelanin and neuromelanin. Both the chemical composition and the physical properties differ for the various types of melanin, suggesting that their chemical and biological responses may behave differently when exposed to light.

Although melanins are ubiquitous in humankind, our understanding of their chemistry is surprisingly limited. Melanin pigments have a complex natural structure that has defied detailed analysis. Once separated from living tissue, they form an amorphous mass and lose their inherent structure, making them very difficult to analyze.

infernalis · 12-14-12, 11:40 AM

Here is a page from a friend who is a genetics specialist by trade, he works in a genetics lab (aids research) 40 hours a week, so I trust what he says...

Garter Snake Morph - Genetics 101

**Aaron_S** · 12-14-12, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Firstly, any of our captive breeding stock is biologically "dead". They are not part of the evolutionary chain and they are not part of nature anymore. Once you pair animals in captivity, there is no natural selection even if you own 2 snakes from the same locality. It is human selection. Evolution of a species can not be a factor when we are talking about captive animals that are not part of the "natural" world.

As far as hybridization undoing evolution goes, nothing can be further from the truth. Hybridization in the wild happens often and is actually a very big part of evolution.

Look up speciation through hybridization. You will find numerous links and PDF files of actual scientific data and not opinions based on our human "morals"...

As far as Africanized honey bees go, is their overly agressive behavior a bad trait? Well it is for the human or animal that stumbles too close to their hive, but for the bee species, it is a trait that keeps their hive protected. Why do you think the species or hybrid is so successful? It certainly is not a bad trait when it comes to the survival of the species. And that is what evolution is all about. Adopting traits that increase the chances of a species success and survival in the wild. If anything, breeding morphs propagates many more bad traits than hybridization ever could.

Morphs are created when defective genetics are propagated. It can happen in the wild and that is where most morphs originate. Very few just "pop up" in collections. Many of our base morphs were wild caught animals. Many made it to adulthood in the wild. These defective genes are in wild populations mostley in the form of heterozygous animals that carry the gene but do not show it. Usually the visual morphs stray too far from the natural surroundings and the visual morph animals are picked off. That is unless we are talking about gene morphs like bells phase lace monitors. The bells phase lives along side normal lace monitors in the wild. Some gene mutations work out well in the wild. Sometimes even better. This may be how some subspecies come about but it is a very rare occurance.

Gregg, you make really good points in regards to everything on topic.

The only part I have with hybrids that you didn't mention, is that in captivity even though they are biological "dead" I believe, with my "human morals" it's our duty to keep stuff "clean".

We all like our different species and prefer to work with various ones so I don't see why we need to muddle up a lot of them. Some moreso than others. I find it extremely hard to believe that there are pure lines of carpet pythons still out there, for example. Which is sad. Since over here we can't get anymore wild ones.

Gregg M · 12-14-12, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Gregg, you make really good points in regards to everything on topic.

The only part I have with hybrids that you didn't mention, is that in captivity even though they are biological "dead" I believe, with my "human morals" it's our duty to keep stuff "clean".

We all like our different species and prefer to work with various ones so I don't see why we need to muddle up a lot of them. Some moreso than others. I find it extremely hard to believe that there are pure lines of carpet pythons still out there, for example. Which is sad. Since over here we can't get anymore wild ones.

Aaron, I am not an advocate of hybrids. Most of them I can do without to be honest. I agree with what you are saying.

However, there are some really cool looking hybrids that even I would like to produce. LOL.

I also did produce gaboon/rhino viper hybrids a few years back and they were awesome. I even had a wild caught adult male hybrid and also had some stunning F2 hybrids as well.

Like I said, I personally think you are right in your thinking. We just can not expect everyone to feel the same and I can see why many people like hybrids.

There is just something very interesting about two separate species being bred together and being able to produce healthy, viable offspring who can also produce healthy, viable offspring. Kinda make you realize how closely related these species really are and how it turns taxonomy over on its head.

BryanB · 12-14-12, 06:05 PM

That was a good read and answered most of my ponderings. thank you

**Aaron_S** · 12-14-12, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

Aaron, I am not an advocate of hybrids. Most of them I can do without to be honest. I agree with what you are saying.

However, there are some really cool looking hybrids that even I would like to produce. LOL.

I also did produce gaboon/rhino viper hybrids a few years back and they were awesome. I even had a wild caught adult male hybrid and also had some stunning F2 hybrids as well.

Like I said, I personally think you are right in your thinking. We just can not expect everyone to feel the same and I can see why many people like hybrids.

There is just something very interesting about two separate species being bred together and being able to produce healthy, viable offspring who can also produce healthy, viable offspring. Kinda make you realize how closely related these species really are and how it turns taxonomy over on its head.

Gregg,

I get what you're saying and I agree. There are a few really cool looking hybrids out there. Then there's some I totally don't agree with because they wouldn't really happen ever in the wild. The burmball? Or the the woma x ball. Come on now.

Like you said, most people won't always agree so I'll stick to me just not supporting those that do it.

I am fine with the gabby/rhino stuff. It's a natural intergrade.

Can you post some pics up? I'd like to see the difference between the gabby, rhino and the cross.

**millertime89** · 12-14-12, 07:44 PM

Morals are completely subjective, I don't have a problem with hybrids as long as the breeder/owner/seller is completely honest with what they have. I think the beauty of hybrids when quality animals are used, I've seen some absolutely stunning hybrids, and I've seen the opposite as well. This is a very divisive topic and usually results in arguments on most forums.

infernalis · 12-14-12, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregg M

There is just something very interesting about two separate species being bred together and being able to produce healthy, viable offspring who can also produce healthy, viable offspring. Kinda make you realize how closely related these species really are and how it turns taxonomy over on its head.

Having a member here with a Gouldii/Pantopes hybrid has my mind reeling about others.

Any possibility that if a larger male Exanthematicus wandered up on an ovulating smallish lady Albig, would it work??

Snakeman8 · 12-25-12, 01:13 PM

half of the whiptail lizards in the U.S were made through hybridizing, nine species to be exact.
my favorite hybrids are the burmball, the wall, and the gabon x rhino,
the thought of mixing species is fascinating to me, i acuacually look forward to future hybrids, but thats my opinon.
now the beaded lizard gila monster hybrid makes no sense nor do i desire to have one.