integrades and hybrids

Nafun · 06-25-10, 07:24 PM

edit by Wayne: I moved this discussion from it's original location as it had completely derailed another thread.

I really don't understand the bias against integrades and hybrids among garters. People breed carpet python integrades all the time. Corn/milk/king/whatever hybrids are pretty common too. A snake is a snake is a snake in my opinion. I would think experimenting with hybrids and integrades to get unusual colors and patterns would be more humane than line breeding for recessive traits.

emseeKAY · 06-25-10, 07:37 PM

I know what you mean, i've always thought the same thing i guess just never gotten around to asking it lol, although many will say that carpets integrades occur naturally whereas a milk/corn/king hybrid would most likely never happen in the wild.

Nafun · 06-25-10, 07:54 PM

Animals like to ****. If my dog will have sex with my couch, I have to believe that two related snake subspecies occasionally get it on as well.

infernalis · 06-25-10, 08:06 PM

right, but where these Nazis have a problem is when two snakes that would never ever meet in the wild get placed in the same cage.

shaunyboy · 06-26-10, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvelfreak

I made the mistake of talking about live feeding on a aussie forum.

Not knowing it's illegal down there.

Man did they tear into me.

probaly the same auussie forum that i started a thread titled " hybrid bullys " it was a poor 19 year old girl jagprincess on here that inspired me to do it.she put a pic up of her gorgeous jungle/jaguar and took serious abuse from grown men.they even pm'd the girl ripping into her.men got banned from the forum it got that bad.they removed my thread hours later.i pm'd the mods asking whats the score ? they replied they had moved the thread to a part of the forum only mod's could see as it was a bit contriversial.they also said the hybrid arguements had all been done before.i said mines was about getting personal with a young girl to the point of sending her horrible pm's.i told him they would have as been as well to delete the thread as i did not see the point of the 5 or 6 mods being the only ones able to see it.in the end i told them they run their forum like the chinese government run china.needless to say ive not been back on since.i can hand on heart honestly say it was the worst forum ive ever been on.i thought where better to learn about australian morelia than an australian forum.im afraid imo 90% of them were plonkers and pretty clueless and arragant with it.percey39 on here was one of the good guys on it i may add.the rest well as said not very nice folk.
cheers shaun

shaunyboy · 06-26-10, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nafun

I really don't understand the bias against integrades and hybrids among garters. People breed carpet python integrades all the time. Corn/milk/king/whatever hybrids are pretty common too. A snake is a snake is a snake in my opinion. I would think experimenting with hybrids and integrades to get unusual colors and patterns would be more humane than line breeding for recessive traits.

try saying that on an australian forum about carpet pythons.they want to burn you at the stake ...!!

its not so much " natural occurring intergrades " but if you dare put 2 carpet pythons together that would have never geographically met in the wild and they're away to get the matches and some rope to tie you to said stake.....!!!

cheers shaun

percey39 · 06-26-10, 10:03 AM

Ahh that thread shaun, yeah they really did act childish and take it out on poor jane. We have some very very strong minded/arrogant herpers over here that would kill at the idea of crossing. I for one will never cross breed myself, but i do find it rather interesting and some of the results can be mind blowing. Especially some the ones being produce in america and europe, a lot of you guys seem to love the hybrid side of the hobby. As long as the people cross breeding lable their animals as such there should not be a problem. Its only when some people try and pass off hybrids as pure lines that things can really turn sour for the herping community as whole. I would hate to see pure lines lost as a result of a group of selfish people lying and stealing off inexperienced keepers.
On another note shaun and jane it has been very interesting seeing how many of the people that had a go at you guy's have now changed their tune on that site. Since they are legally allowed to cross breed in some states here now, plenty of the arrogant aholes are now talking about hybrids and future plans on crosses. Oh how things change and so very quick if may add too.
That forum you have all had trouble with like to lynch people for pathetic little differences. I have brought up the live feeding debate for hatchling snakes as i have found sometimes only this will work. I got burned at the stake for that and have learnt not to share too many personal experiences on that particular forum.

shaunyboy · 06-26-10, 11:04 AM

well said percey mate.

you pretty much nailed it mate,as long as its organised and honest then pure lines remain uneffected.

as you know i keep both and feel very strongly about putting anything other than a pure diamond to a pure diamond female.if i disagree with sometghing i say what i think then try to justify it as much as i can.everyone is different and thats great.its the idiots that take it to a whole other level with personal attacks.i wonder if the main guys in the attack on jane would have been so keen if her father was standing next to them.i chose my percentages very carefully mate.there were about 10% of you who were very decent,knowledgable and helpfull.brian i think the mods name was i e mailed (the first guy in the list of mods,think he had a jungle headshot as his avatar).he actually agreed with me and said the guys in question were idiots.my thread had been removed before i got a chance to read it but i think jane saw some of it.

its good news their relaxing the laws over there

cheers shaun

percey39 · 06-26-10, 11:28 AM

Nice and helpful people are few and far between on that site, its a shame as it would be a good place for people like yourself and others starting out to get useful information on some of the australian species.
Honesty thats the key i believe with hybrids. It will be very hard to controll who breeds what and what they will be selling them as. This is where we could come unstuck as we all know there are people out there that are only in it to make a quick buck and dont care about falsifying lines to new keepers. I just hope that people will stay honest and attempt to keep pure lines of species and locale PURE.

marvelfreak · 06-26-10, 03:32 PM

I thought i recognize jagprincess screen name. I remember that thread. It was after that i quit checking it out for a long time. It's also where i recognize percey39. He is one of the good guys shaun. I been checking the site out a bit lately and percey right their tune as changed big time on this topic. Lets face it sSnakeSs by far the freindlys site i found IMO.

Nafun · 06-26-10, 06:43 PM

IMO, hybridization of carpets outside of australia is a good thing. Fresh genetic material in such a small gene pool outweighs any perceived loss by creating hybrids.

Nafun · 06-26-10, 09:01 PM

Ack, this got split off mid discussion? Now it looks like I brought up hybrid hate, and I'm going to be a lightning rod for the "purists" =P

infernalis · 06-26-10, 09:08 PM

Sorry about that, but the discussion seemed to merit it's own thread, and it had deviated mine by a whole page of replies.

Unfortunately the software sorts chronologically, or I could have made an opening post, then moved the thread in, but then my post would have been on the bottom, not the top.

percey39 · 06-26-10, 09:29 PM

The perceived loss could be said to far out weigh any gains nafun. It would take a long time, but the loss of locale and pure species is a possibility. There will always be breeders who will only breed the pure lines, but the prices will eventually soar for these. Also the market will be flooded with poor looking hybrids, bad quality animals that could perceived as normals by some and may well be sold as that.
I have always wanted to know what people are doing with the less appealing hybrids, as you never really see any one put their hand up and say look what i have produced here. This is where i see the problem has already began, as these dodgy breeders have produced poor quality animals and selling these to newbies or destroying close to whole clutches.
Hybrids are a great thing for the hobby as it will get more people interested in keeping reptiles as some amazing colours/patterns are being produced and will only get better, but they could also destroy it too.

Lankyrob · 06-27-10, 03:54 AM

If you compare hybirdization to dogs it seems pretty easy to manage. Those animals that have "pedigree" need to show their ancestry to prove that it is so - any other dog is classed as a mongrel and therefore has no paperwork.

As owners/keepers of snakes or dogs we can make an educated choice to take the cheaper non pedigree model or pay more for an animal with proven ancestry.

I realise there are unscrupulous people out there that will falisfiy ancestry records and maybe that is where we need a governing body along the lines of the Kennel Club.