Does anybody have experience with salt water?

BarelyBreathing · 11-07-12, 07:36 PM

No fish pictures, please.

I'm looking for tips of how to build a sump and get a salt water aquarium up and running. I'm also looking for tips on refugium filtration and whether or not a skimmer is needed while using this (will a skimmer starve the refugium?). This will be for invertebrates. Any other tips and advice is welcome.

BryanB · 11-07-12, 08:34 PM

The best refugium media is a ton of live rock and I have never starved a refugium and I have always ran a skimmer and a UV sterilizer. This is not research talking but 12 years of trial and error with lots of success with fish inverts and corral both soft and stony

BarelyBreathing · 11-07-12, 08:39 PM

This is the information I was looking for, thanks!

If you're using a UV sterilizer and a skimmer, how are you feeding everything that eats all the micro-organisms?

jaleely · 11-07-12, 09:43 PM

We've had ours for about 7 years, home built sump, LOTS of live rock which is a great natural filter. DEF need a skimmer no matter what. Refugium will be more healthy, as the protein skimmer skims off the bad goop. Also keeps the water oxygenated.
Invertibrates, in my experience, require perfect water conditions, where as fish are like 1% more flexible *lol*
once you see copepods you have a perfect set up.

Are you planning to set it up, and cycle it? (cure the rock) Recommended, btw.
What lighting do you plan on having?
Sump/refugium has to have lighting. Tank lights go on during the day, sump light at night.

We do not have a uv sterilizer. It's not really necessary, and if it's too powerful could kill of phytoplankton. It can kill the good stuff along with the bad ...at best does nothing and isn't as powerful, at worst will kill a lot of things.

Some people use an ozonator...i You are killing bacteria, but you also want good bacteria in there.

my hubby says most important thing is do not buy a cheapo skimmer..invest some money in a good one. It is actually one of the most important things to have. : )

jaleely · 11-07-12, 09:47 PM

What kind of invertebrates were you talking about having? That actually covers a lot of animals and crustaceans : )
Hubby says you don't need to be as "clean" with a great skimmer if you're talking hermit crabs and stuff, but personally i think the cleaner the water the better...you can always hand feed the crabs.
Corals are the ones that can be hard, require specific lighting for different kinds, and super clean water with a large colony of copepods, and phytoplankton.

BarelyBreathing · 11-07-12, 10:15 PM

I am planning to set it up and cycle it, yes. Can I do this without using live animals? I've heard conflicting information on this.

What lighting do I plan on having? I am looking for recommendations there, but so far we are leaning towards LED lighting.

Is a skimmer overflow box the best option to feed the refugium?

As for invertebrates, we plan on crabs, snails, cucumbers, soft corals, stars, shrimp, and feather dusters. I do want to be as clean as possible, but still maintain a bio-active environment.

jaleely · 11-08-12, 10:45 PM

Most effective way i've read of cycling it is to set it all up, put the live rock in (rinsed breifly with salt water you plan to dispose of...to get rid of silt, and mud) then cover the entire tank with dark paper, or something similar. That helps keep the algea growth down. I've also heard of people not wanting to rise the rock, since that's where a lot of critters lie dormant (and why it's live rock). It's up to the owner. We did not rinse ours...it was very easy to stir up muck for a very, very long time!
We also...dun dun dun...had a mantis shrimp egg! We'd had the tank established for about a year when hubby *saw* it kill our yellow tang, and begin eating it (which means it hatched, then grew big enough to kill lol)
We were able to find the rock it lived in, and boil the rock to kill it (which sucks, as they are cool...but they will bust through non-bullet proof glass, and obviously, kill all of the fish you have)

So, yes you can do it without live animals...but the rock will be live, and harboring all kinds of eggs for things to grow...which is what you want, it's just hard cuz sometimes you get bad with the good.

We just switched to LEDs about a year ago.
Two different brands broke, for no reason (they do just sit there and turn on and off daily) marine land, and ecozotic (not sure i've i'm spelling correctly and too lazy to look up lol)

Hubby wound up modifying and fixing up his own set. He's done all the lighting, and piping. We actually have an 85 gallon tank, 29 gallon sump, and there is a 28 gallon nano tank piped in so they all three share water. So, we have our nano civilization and our main tank : )

an overflow box draws water out of the tank into the sump, where as the protein skimmer skims the top. it sits on the side.
we may be out of touch with new stuff. Though, hubby says if he could he'd buy a drilled tank (already made to work with a sump).

The big feather duster worms are hard to take care of, as they require a ready supply of copepods already living in an established tank.

the sump can be the refugium, though they don't have to be the same. Our setup is that way. Sump can be just a container of water under the main tank, or it can act as the "safe" area...like a refugium. Ours is full of caulerpa and live rock, sand, and chaetemorpha. we have TONS of different species of copepods living in there.

We've gone through different phases of ecosystems. Our tank right now is probably the healthiest it's ever been. Our only failure was a couple months ago, the power went out at night, for the whole night, and all of the fish suffocated, though since the corals close up and "go to sleep" at night, they were fine. phytoplanton produces carbon dioxide, and they flourish in the dark. : (
so yeah, our tank is healthy in that respect...but that really sucked.

We've gone through a lot over the years. It's a very expensive hobby. Rewarding, but it's like doing chemestry every day. Suppliments, levels, blah blah *lol*

RandyRhoads · 11-08-12, 11:31 PM

This tank is for ONLY inverts?

You can speed up the cycle by throwing a peice or two of fish in there to decay. A small silverside or two will help.

How big is the tank going to be? I do not believe all tanks need a sump/refugium, or a skimmer.

jaleely · 11-08-12, 11:55 PM

I really can't think of a situation where one wouldn't be beneficial.
You are creating an eco-system. It does support itself when done right, but the ocean is constantly cleaning itself through it's surge and waves (yes) and you cannot recreate that properly in the home, without a skimmer.
Only if it's very, very lightly stocked.
if you want soft corals, crabs, starfish ...
I mean some soft corals, like mushrooms, clean the water themselves.
For instance our water is so clean now, that we used to have over 300 mushroom polyps, but now there are only a few. But, the fish and hard corals are thriving.

it really is sensitive. it goes through phases, algea blooms when something dies off...if the lighting changes some things become more successful, or less.
Many soft corals are low-light.

Honestly though we've found crabs and shrimp to be some of the more sensitive and difficult things. They require a lot of care when acclimating initially, and are very sensitive to iodine and other changes in the water.

we've had phases of extreme success...breedings, etc. we've had blooms of little starfish, breeding shrimp (very fun to watch them release the babies, though those are hard to keep alive).
I guess i'm saying that it all starts with water quality. however you can achieve the best water quality, it would be worth investing in.

we've had our skimmer going and been able to support the gooey detritus eaters.

RandyRhoads · 11-08-12, 11:57 PM

Uh, what about a 20 gal with a 50% WC every other week....

Aanayab1 · 11-08-12, 11:59 PM

You have gotten a lot of good advise so far, plenty to get you started and started well. I will suggest buying a pre-drilled tank with built in overflow. Now if the hubby and you like to DIY you can drill the glass yourself but the diamond bits are kinda high priced. The drilled tank can save lots of headaches and you can make the tank virtually silent with the right drain set up. SKIMMER is very important topic as stated previously. If you have a tank+sump system that holds a total water volume of, lets say 100gal you will want a skimmer that is capable of handling at the least a 200gal system. The flow rate through sump is also very, very important. To slow and the water in system doesn't get cleaned properly and to fast ends in the same result. I have found that 5-7x's the tank's total water volume through the sump per hour is perfect for my tanks. Remember when you are doing the plumbing use ball valves instead of gate valves, the reason is gate valves restrict water flow way to much. Oh and always put a ball valve at the exit of the water pumps to adjust flow rate where needed, if placed at pump intake you will shorten the life of pump 50%. Unions at every pump and any other place you think they may come in handy.

Here are some very important questions that can save you tons of money.

Do you want an aggressive tank or a community tank? Will save money in lost fish due to compatibility issues.
Do you want a reef tank or a fish only? A lot of fish eat corals, polyps and inverts.
Do you want SPS, LPS, NPS corals? Will determine your lighting needs and some corals will kill others as they grow and cross living areas. Some need little light or will not tolerate light at all other than ambient.

Be well prepared to dump more money than you than you imagine down the drain...literally, it's just part of the learning curve you could say.

jaleely · 11-09-12, 12:09 AM

randy what a pain!! LOL
I amended my post repeatedly btw, so i don't know what version you saw : )

Anaya you wrote that all way better than i could have. Good post!

RandyRhoads · 11-09-12, 12:15 AM

How am I a pain lol? You have way more experience than me if that's not acceptable tell me so my tank doesn't die! I was just going by what i've been told by a few will work to sneak around pricey skimmers haha...

BarelyBreathing · 11-09-12, 11:54 AM

Thank you everybody for the advice. This is perfect advice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyRhoads

This tank is for ONLY inverts?

You can speed up the cycle by throwing a peice or two of fish in there to decay. A small silverside or two will help.

How big is the tank going to be? I do not believe all tanks need a sump/refugium, or a skimmer.

Yes, only inverts. I have a problem with fish. Most of them make me literally vomit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aanayab1

You have gotten a lot of good advise so far, plenty to get you started and started well. I will suggest buying a pre-drilled tank with built in overflow. Now if the hubby and you like to DIY you can drill the glass yourself but the diamond bits are kinda high priced. The drilled tank can save lots of headaches and you can make the tank virtually silent with the right drain set up. SKIMMER is very important topic as stated previously. If you have a tank+sump system that holds a total water volume of, lets say 100gal you will want a skimmer that is capable of handling at the least a 200gal system. The flow rate through sump is also very, very important. To slow and the water in system doesn't get cleaned properly and to fast ends in the same result. I have found that 5-7x's the tank's total water volume through the sump per hour is perfect for my tanks. Remember when you are doing the plumbing use ball valves instead of gate valves, the reason is gate valves restrict water flow way to much. Oh and always put a ball valve at the exit of the water pumps to adjust flow rate where needed, if placed at pump intake you will shorten the life of pump 50%. Unions at every pump and any other place you think they may come in handy.

Here are some very important questions that can save you tons of money.

Do you want an aggressive tank or a community tank? Will save money in lost fish due to compatibility issues.
Do you want a reef tank or a fish only? A lot of fish eat corals, polyps and inverts.
Do you want SPS, LPS, NPS corals? Will determine your lighting needs and some corals will kill others as they grow and cross living areas. Some need little light or will not tolerate light at all other than ambient.

Be well prepared to dump more money than you than you imagine down the drain...literally, it's just part of the learning curve you could say.

My tank will be inverts only. No fish.
I want a reef tank.
As far as corals go, we're looking into soft corals such as mushrooms and polyps.

Wildside · 11-09-12, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Thank you everybody for the advice. This is perfect advice.

Yes, only inverts. I have a problem with fish. Most of them make me literally vomit.

My tank will be inverts only. No fish.
I want a reef tank.
As far as corals go, we're looking into soft corals such as mushrooms and polyps.

You can put fish in a reef tank.