Balancing hydration in Savs

[formica]

I've been thinking about this subject recently - esp in regards to humidity and dehydration in Savs; although I dont dispute the humidity requirements of Savs, I think there must be something more to dehydration than just air humidity

Some things I think we need to take into consideration:

Water content of foods - are we providing enough water rich foods with standard diets? I notice amphibians, slugs, snails etc, are part of wild Sav diets, these are higher in water than for eg crickets. If a Sav does not drink enough water too keep itself hydrated in a dry enviroment, then we also need to know why it doesnt/cannot do this

Salt content of foods - how much salt does a Sav require, and how much is it getting from the diet we provide? Is the balance right? The amount of salt in the body will determine the amount of water which moves in and out of the lungs of the monitor, too much or too little, in relation to the humidity levels, and this can cause problems in both directions, including both dehydration and respiratory infections

Sugars, protiens and fats - how does the Sav utilize these in its diet? Could the sugar content be a factor? Humans are notrious sugar monsters, and looking at all the artificial foods (and fruits) we feed to live food, could we be adding to much sugar to their bodies? this will add strain to a Savs ability to hydrate its body and utilize its biological systems to produce energy - if a Sav is not designed for the level of sugar it may be getting from its diet. same goes for Fats, all these aspects will affect how much water a Sav needs to remain healthy because they all require diffrent amounts of water to be used as energy. Sugars in particular are relativly rare in the wild, including Carbohydrates in most of the forms that we use them as humans, including in pet food; ie cooked starch, which burns very quickly and uses allot of water to be burnt

Metabolism - I think this is probably the defining factor in a Savs water usage in relation to the above, the metabolism in reptiles, as we all know, is controlled by enviormental tempretures - if the temps are high all the time, so is its metabolism, this means water is being used by its body to burn food for energy, combined with a high sugar, high fat, high salt diet, this could very well lead to dehydration, very easily - the balance, especially in desert creatures, is very delicate


I think we need some good answers to these questions, if we are going to avoid dehydrating monitors; any thoughts on the subject?

[formica]

Re: pet food - this is relating to foods used to raise prey for monitors, not giving pet food to monitors directly (seems to be a reasonable consensus that this is not healthy)

[franks]

Millipedes, scorpions, crickets, and beetles make up 79.3% of a wild savannah monitor's diet. Larvae makes up 15.1%, and lizard eggs and snails make up 5.6%.

I will start doing the research, but I assume the 79.3% I just listed have a similiar moisture content to the prey (dubias) most keepers use as a staple diet. I know both wayne and myself feed alot of earthworms, which may be similiar to larvae in moisture content. I want to look this stuff up. Very interested observations here formica. I do not know if you met "Jarich" but he probably has all these figures and stats on the top of his head. He is really into and has wrote alot on this forum about nutrition content of our feeders.

[Gregg M]

The thing is, it is not air humidity that helps monitors and other reptiles maintain humidity. It is the humidity in the substrate that is important. A properly set up substrate with the right heating will automatically set the atmosphere in the cage to the levels it should be.

I think many keepers make things a lot more complicated than they need to be. Varanids are so very easy to keep. A deep substrate with a good humidity gradient and a wide range of temperature options is what is needed. Get those two aspects down correctly, everything else will fall into place and that is how you will avoid dehydration.

[formica]

Originally Posted by franks

Millipedes, scorpions, crickets, and beetles make up 79.3% of a wild savannah monitor's diet. Larvae makes up 15.1%, and lizard eggs and snails make up 5.6%.

I will start doing the research, but I assume the 79.3% I just listed have a similiar moisture content to the prey (dubias) most keepers use as a staple diet. I know both wayne and myself feed alot of earthworms, which may be similiar to larvae in moisture content. I want to look this stuff up. Very interested observations here formica. I do not know if you met "Jarich" but he probably has all these figures and stats on the top of his head. He is really into and has wrote alot on this forum about nutrition content of our feeders.

look forward to hearing what you find out!

Water content can be measured fairly easily if I remeber my school science days correctly, so if no information turns up, we can figure it out; I think that drying several at low tempretures, and averaging the weight loss will give the answer on water content ratios (edit: drying foods, not monitors)

Originally Posted by Gregg M

The thing is, it is not air humidity that helps monitors and other reptiles maintain humidity. It is the humidity in the substrate that is important. A properly set up substrate with the right heating will automatically set the atmosphere in the cage to the levels it should be.

I think many keepers make things a lot more complicated than they need to be. Varanids are so very easy to keep. A deep substrate with a good humidity gradient and a wide range of temperature options is what is needed. Get those two aspects down correctly, everything else will fall into place and that is how you will avoid dehydration.

I dont think there is any dispute over the requirement of high humidity - however, we cant assume that high humidity is the only aspect, infact we should assume that it is only part of it, because Salt levels determine the progress of osmosis inside the lungs of the monitor, and Sugar levels and Types willl determine how much water is used per calory burnt, the higher the water:calorie ratio is, the more water is required to sustain life, same applies to fat and protien energy sources, etc; if any of those are unbalanced, it will affect the way the monitors body interacts with humidity levels.

I read an interesting thread the other day, which seems to suggest that a 15year life span, is not actually ''very old'', there is some evidence presented regarding 2 monitors, both wild, and both going on for 30 years old. It is not evidence without questions of course, the initial age of the monitors when first spotted could be questioned, the specific species may also have completely different age expectancy, but its interesting non the less, not least because they are wild specimens. If 15 is considered old for a captive, but is actually half a wild monitors potential, then it means we may need to tweek the way we look after monitors.

a few posts down, when you see the pictures: Savannah Monitor Life Span in Wild (& Captivity)also Size

[formica]

this would appear to show a Sav drinking water:

Savannah monitor drinking water - YouTube

This humidity issue is bugging me, there is no way that a monitor cannot replace, several times over, all the water lost thru its lungs over night (even in the driest of enclosures) by drinking just a few sips of water


Must be something more to it, im guessing salts and sugars play a big role in dehydration; input appriciated! mean time, all my feeders are coming off cooked cereals and fish food

[infernalis]

The humidity is only a part of the overall picture.

Heat is another factor some people just don't get. If the air inside your enclosure does not belt you in the face when you open the door, it's too cold. I have never been to Africa, but I did go to Brasil once, the climate in Rio is pretty close, when the door opened on the plane, and I stepped out onto that tarmac, it was like walking on the sun to me... Real heat, not this "oh it's hot in Miami" wussy warmth, but real TROPICAL heat. Even at night it was freakin muggy. That is the kind of heat monitors crave and need to function properly.

It has been stated that "chronic exposure to insufficient temperatures" impedes proper kidney function, now with that information, one can conclude that once the kidneys begin to work less, the salts and urates of the bloodstream will elevate and the organs will begin to shut down.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Gregg M

I think many keepers make things a lot more complicated than they need to be. Varanids are so very easy to keep. A deep substrate with a good humidity gradient and a wide range of temperature options is what is needed. Get those two aspects down correctly, everything else will fall into place and that is how you will avoid dehydration.

Could not agree more, a big box of dirt works wonders.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by infernalis

The humidity is only a part of the overall picture.

Heat is another factor some people just don't get. If the air inside your enclosure does not belt you in the face when you open the door, it's too cold. I have never been to Africa, but I did go to Brasil once, the climate in Rio is pretty close, when the door opened on the plane, and I stepped out onto that tarmac, it was like walking on the sun to me... Real heat, not this "oh it's hot in Miami" wussy warmth, but real TROPICAL heat. Even at night it was freakin muggy. That is the kind of heat monitors crave and need to function properly.

It has been stated that "chronic exposure to insufficient temperatures" impedes proper kidney function, now with that information, one can conclude that once the kidneys begin to work less, the salts and urates of the bloodstream will elevate and the organs will begin to shut down.

Africa is hot. Like, that feeling you get when you open an oven to take out your pizza, or having a blow drier in your face. Surface temps will give you serious burns like walking on hot coals. Last time I went to Jordan (which is 'cool' for the middle east I know its not africa though) surface temps in the beginning of may were 130 - 140, and may is a cooler month for them. I haven't been to Egypt in over a year, but its like 10 - 20 degrees hotter on average. Both of these are north of savannah habitat, and it just gets hotter and hotter as you head south to the equator

[formica]

Interesting point on Kidney function and tempretures, yes kidneys are a very important aspect of water regulation and dealing with dangerous chemicals, how much more science do we know about this aspect? or is it mainly speculation and observations at the moment?

If monitors are dying from Dehydration, due to kidney failure as a result of too low temps - then dehydration/humidity is not the key issue that needs to be dealt with in that particular situation - this is why we need more info on these areas

I think we have all pretty much got the picture on substrate, so maybe we can keep this on topic

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by infernalis

The humidity is only a part of the overall picture.

Heat is another factor some people just don't get. If the air inside your enclosure does not belt you in the face when you open the door, it's too cold. I have never been to Africa, but I did go to Brasil once, the climate in Rio is pretty close, when the door opened on the plane, and I stepped out onto that tarmac, it was like walking on the sun to me... Real heat, not this "oh it's hot in Miami" wussy warmth, but real TROPICAL heat. Even at night it was freakin muggy. That is the kind of heat monitors crave and need to function properly.

It has been stated that "chronic exposure to insufficient temperatures" impedes proper kidney function, now with that information, one can conclude that once the kidneys begin to work less, the salts and urates of the bloodstream will elevate and the organs will begin to shut down.

Hi Wayne, in the areas the Savannah monitor comes from the temps during their periods of highest activity only average around the mid 80`s F in the daytime (that`s during the wet season), and that`s what you all need to try and replicate in captivity for this species.
Obviously the ambient temps will be higher directly under the heat bulbs.

[formica]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi Wayne, in the areas the Savannah monitor comes from the temps during their periods of highest activity only average around the mid 80`s F in the daytime (that`s during the wet season), and that`s what you all need to try and replicate in captivity for this species.
Obviously the ambient temps will be higher directly under the heat bulbs.

I have been wondering about that point having looked up Ghanas averages - that could put burrow temps lower than the 24-26C recomended to me so far; 20-22C (~70F) sounds like a better bet (80F ~ 27C) for deep inside

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

I have been wondering about that point having looked up Ghanas averages - that could put burrow temps lower than the 24-26C recomended to me so far; 20-22C (~70F) sounds like a better bet (80F ~ 27C) for deep inside

Hi, the ground retains heat very well (in the wild) so the temps in their burrows/hides may not fall below what we usually recommend as the lowest ambient temp in the coolest parts here in captivity. It`s really about giving them the option to cool right down at times which is important for their health.
Even if you have a gravid female it`s advised to offer a slight range of temps in the substrate from top to bottom rather than trying to get it all at the one figure; (example mid 80`sF).

[jarich]

Originally Posted by formica

this would appear to show a Sav drinking water:

Savannah monitor drinking water - YouTube

This humidity issue is bugging me, there is no way that a monitor cannot replace, several times over, all the water lost thru its lungs over night (even in the driest of enclosures) by drinking just a few sips of water


Must be something more to it, im guessing salts and sugars play a big role in dehydration; input appriciated! mean time, all my feeders are coming off cooked cereals and fish food

If that is the only thing this thread accomplishes then that is enough. I think your feeder diet is the next and more important topic of research for you.

In answer to the question above, yes, the moisture content of our common feeders is about the same as those they commonly eat in the wild, when properly cared for. That last bit is key though.

The problem isnt just something as immediate as dry air makes a monitor thirsty and then it drinks. Dry air slowly, over time, dehydrates the animal. Like most things, when it is over a long period of time, its probably not noticeable. (Most people dont drink enough water to stay hydrated either, and we are told to drink more water all the time.) Its not like animals are aware of their hydration levels at all moments, especially when its not life threatening. It is that low level, long term dehydration that is the common problem, eventually reducing organ function and causing long term damage. If its something more immediate and short term, then yes, the animal would just drink.

It comes down to adaptation. They live in an environment where they are active during times where the humidity levels are high enough that losing hydration to the atmosphere is not problematic. In other words, they have not been in situations in the wild where long term, low level dehydration was an issue that evolution made them adapt to. There are wet and dry seasons, and so they are more or less active depending on that climate as an adaptation. This is short term however, lasting just a few months at a time. When we put them in dry boxes constantly for years, we present them with a novel environment their bodies arent adapted to dealing with. They have no way of compensating over the long term. The other things you talked about, dealing with variable salts, sugars, proteins, etc in inverts is something their bodies are again adapted to accomodate, within reason (unless your feeding fish food ) The goal is to provide them with the closest parameters we can to the environmental parameters they are adapted to dealing with in the wild. Obviously there is variability in that environment, and that can be very positive, but that long term novel situation they arent adapted to is likely to always cause problems over time.