Advice for a first time Breeder?

Dranix Paremoon · 01-30-12, 12:34 PM

Hi,

So I know I'm starting a little late, but my female spider is a bit picky sometimes, so she didn't gain the weight I was hoping for for the fall. But she's just about ready now and I want to try to have my first breeding with her and my male normal. My cinnamons are still a bit small this year, but they eat very well, so I think both will be ready on time next year.

I'm a little nervous about it though. I've read several different articles on breeding BPs, so I know what to do, I just keep feeling nervous about the whole male and female introductions part mostly. Some articles talk about the risk of one eating the other, and I have no idea how to tell if they like eachother or one plans to devour the other when I'm not looking. I know it's only rare for that to happen, but I love my babies, I just worry it may actually happen. If there's any sort of body language or something they do to help me figure out they aren't happy with eachother, I would love to know before I begin introductions.

I also worry about egg binding. Can you tell I get worried about all the things that may happen? XP

I've begun to lower the temps at night for my two ready snakes and keep feeding regularly to all the BPs that are still taking.

Any tips or advice from people who have bred their BPs before, I would LOVE to hear it.

Thanks

jarich · 01-30-12, 12:55 PM

Please understand that Im not trying to be a jerk as Im sure this may not be the advice you were looking for. My most common advice is simply dont do it. Its stressful on the animals, can easily cause problems in many ways (especially for newer owners), and even if all goes well you will most likely be left with a clutch of BPs you either cant find homes for or end up selling to questionable owners on the internet. I definitely understand the desire to breed them, as I did the same thing when I first got my BPs. The question is, why do you want to breed them? Is it just to see if you can? Its difficult to see that as a viable reason given the likely end result. Unless you are actually going into business as a breeder full time, it probably isnt good for your pet or the babies they will produce. After all, we all spay/neuter our dogs and cats for a very good reason.

BarelyBreathing · 01-30-12, 12:59 PM

I agree with Jarich. Unless you have supurb animals and are five steps ahead of the game, you will just be contributing to the over abundance of these animals, and the sad reality is, most normals and spiders (the spiders with noticable head wobbles) simply get sold as feeders for $3.

Dranix Paremoon · 01-30-12, 01:29 PM

I certainly appreciate the honesty from both of you, and I understand the concern on these topics. I wouldn't mind tossing ideas back and forth with you though about it.

I have had Ball Pythons for almost 4 years (since I began living on my own) and have thought about these issues before, and I certainly agree with the over abundance of normal BP's. I have been posting up ads on and off for months telling people that if they'd be interested in buying BP's I breed, to tell me and I'd keep their e-mails. I have gathered up a decent list of interested buyers, some are personal friends of mine, and some of those want normals. I have been doing my best to help ensure homes for my potential future clutch and I feel I have done a decent job in that area.
I've also seriously considered the possibilities of being a reptile breeder. Not full time of course, but breeding once every year or two. I figure breeding small time like that would be perfectly fine for the animals, and I only plan to breed my normal once or twice for getting started.

I've also been completely okay with keeping any snakes that don't find homes. If I fail to find homes for the whole clutch fairly easilly I will probably just not breed again, but I always wanted pet snakes and now that I've had them a while I'd like to experience the breeding aspect, even if it's just one time.

Terranaut · 01-30-12, 01:49 PM

I won't try to talk you out of it but remember that like said above eveyone knows a BP breeder and there are so many out there. So my advice is either plan on keeping the young and hoping you sell them or pic a different breed that is less popular.
As far as advice. Read on. Ask questions as things happen. All of the answers you are looking for are already on here. Good luck. Enjoy!!

Nismo89 · 01-30-12, 01:55 PM

You seem to have it all lined up and ready to go. Had you said everything you said in the second post the first time around I'm sure you would have got a lot of go for it responses. You put quite a bit of thought into it and have already lined up potential homes. A thing to do to make sure that the babies will still be wanted by all the people who have asked for one is simply ask for a simple non refundable small deposit. Some of the best advice though is breed for morphs you yourself want to keep so that if they don't find homes you won't be stuck with x amount of snakes that you really aren't that in to. GL with your breeding plans if you choose to go through with it.

KORBIN5895 · 01-30-12, 04:00 PM

I can testify to the op putting up ads. I only live three hours away and have seen them.

jarich · 01-30-12, 05:57 PM

Im glad you took the time to really look into finding homes for them already. Thats both surprising and very commendable. Most people are so concerned with trying to get them to mate that they forget that means a lot of little babies to find homes for later on. You seem like you have a pretty good handle on things so far. Can you tell us what you have read already? I could recommend some further things based on what you have read up to this point.

As for your concerns about their introduction, just make sure it is a time when you are able to watch them for awhile. I have never had any problem like one eating the other, but there have been times where it just wasnt making one of them very happy. Its good that youre a little paranoid; itll keep checking and rechecking things, which is an especially good thing when you have the eggs around to take care of.

As for any specific questions you have, there are a few professional breeders who specialize in BP's here in the forum. They are frequently online but due to being busy, will often need you to ask direct questions so they can get right to the point for you. Hope this helps and we definitely are here anytime you have ideas to toss around.

**Aaron_S** · 01-30-12, 06:18 PM

Just put them together when their ready. I recommend letting them empty for a week or so before putting them together. Place the male in the females enclosure. Leave them be. Check back the following day or whatever and see if they have locked. I leave my males in for 3 days. You may get a better result during some type of storm. It gets them going apparently.

Enjoy!

jarich · 01-30-12, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

You may get a better result during some type of storm. It gets them going apparently.

Hahahaha! "Hey baby, its the end of the world, lets get it on..."

Dranix Paremoon · 01-30-12, 09:05 PM

Thanks for the support on my process thus far

makes me feel much better. I like feeling more secure about them getting homes easily with the whole posting up ads to find interested people. I know some will possibly no longer be interested by the time they roll around, but with the amount I have now, that wouldn't be too hard on things. I am certainly fine with keeping the babies that may not get homes. I think I will do that process before each plan to breed to get an idea for the glimpse at how easily I may be able to get them homes. I love animals and adopt animals and take care of them for others all the time. And I breed my own mice now, which is quickly growing into a very steady amount of food for my mice, and I feel secure knowing I know what went into the mice before they go into my snakes.

As for where I've done my research on breeding, I've mainly read the ones that are able to explain it in clear manners, I do not want to get confused with what to do, so I treat myself like a dummy when looking for how-to's and such.
Markus Jayne's website is the one I'm referring to most often, but I also have read up on VmsHerp.com a bit, and Kingsnake is also a site I find informative on origins as well.

I get that most seem to lower the temps in mid or late fall, some stop the feeding at this point for a bit. I feel like if they still seem interested in food, I will let them eat, since others say that feeding during this time doesn't change their outcomes. Though that's where I like more opinions.
Introductions will start, male in with the female or vice versa. 3 days together, less if they have bred. Give them a while to rest away from eachother, then repeat the process of introduction. Around pring time, this process stops and most seem to suggest feeding females a fair bit before they start refusing food. Give them a lay box that's got good humidity for when she lays, seperate her from the eggs and gently place in an incubator for about 2 months, then babies

Of course discarding any eggs that turn bad along the way and making sure the humidity is good. I think I got all the basics down. I used to wonder about letting the female do the natural thing and hatching her own eggs, which can be done, though I think I will still go for an incubator to be safe.

I will do more searching around the site here for relevent threads, sorry if I was just asking things a bunch already did before me. I skimmed threads a bit to see but didn't see any that sounded like what I needed. I'm still getting used to navigating here at times

**Aaron_S** · 02-01-12, 09:40 PM

You seem to have it for the most part. Keep referring to Markus' site as it's full of useful information. It's what I used for my guide.

A couple things to point out, when you start dropping temps and getting ready to pair. Keep feeding, especially females. They'll need the extra weight and they'll stop feeding when it's time. They know themselves better than we ever could. Let them tell you when to take a break.

Also, get them on rats. Mice make things more difficult as it's a huge amount of prey you've got to feed to keep a female full and enough fat to lay eggs.

Lastly, don't worry about an egg box if you're going to be around within a day or so of her laying eggs. You only need one if they are incubating the eggs themselves or will be away for a few days.

All of mine just laid them in their bins and then I took them away into eggs boxes. Just ensure you switch the female to a brand new bin or seriously clean out the one the eggs were laid in because they'll keep searching for them through smell and won't eat otherwise.

Dranix Paremoon · 02-01-12, 11:33 PM

Thanks so much for the advice on all that. I was thinking I should buy some rats especially for my female. Makes me wonder if I should start a very small rat colony so I'll have bigger meals on hand.
I definitely like the idea to keep feeding them while they still want it.

Thanks again

Corey Woods · 02-02-12, 07:56 AM

Put them together and see what happens. Things should be fine.

Corey

Dranix Paremoon · 02-21-12, 11:57 AM

Well, things have been going okay so far. Heat off every night and what not.
Introductions go well each time, no scrapping or fighting. But as far as I've monitored, no copulation.
I do 3 days on and 3 days off for the female, leaving feeding days on their off time.
Last night I normally remove the female and was about to when she started slithering around and wagging her tail. She hadn't done anything that I noticed to be showing herself ready to mate until then, so I decided to leave her in one more night to see if they copulate. Unless they did while I was sleeping, they don't seem to have done anything.
Any tips would be nice. Not sure if I should leave them alone if she's tail wagging, or remove her at the 3 day mark regardless.
I also introduced the males together last week to see if it would help, and like when I first introduced the male and female, I watched for about an hour to make sure no fighting or serious injury happened, all went fine. A little too fine though; no male neck wrestling at all. Maybe my other male is still too small. He's about 800 grams, the one I'm working on breeding is about 1100.