Oh my god - Page 9

TucsonRES · 02-25-13, 05:32 PM

To anyone in Az, please go to this causes page and share it with your friends here: Change is needed in the wording of animal cruelty & neglect laws and it needs to start with us | causes.com.

It is to amend current Title 13 - Criminal Code, CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER, 13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
G. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Animal" means a mammal, bird, reptile or amphibian.
2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.
3. "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary food, water or shelter.

What we propose is for the law to read in Sec 3 is: "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary and appropriate food, clean water and proper shelter.

That simple change would allow enforcement officers more tools to protect all animals. It is a starting point to helping these animals. I have also emailed our elected officials.

Thanks,
Doug

**Aaron_S** · 02-25-13, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TucsonRES

To anyone in Az, please go to this causes page and share it with your friends here: Change is needed in the wording of animal cruelty & neglect laws and it needs to start with us | causes.com.

It is to amend current Title 13 - Criminal Code, CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER, 13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
G. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Animal" means a mammal, bird, reptile or amphibian.
2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.
3. "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary food, water or shelter.

What we propose is for the law to read in Sec 3 is: "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary and appropriate food, clean water and proper shelter.

That simple change would allow enforcement officers more tools to protect all animals. It is a starting point to helping these animals. I have also emailed our elected officials.

Thanks,
Doug

I sincerely hope that gets changed for you.

StudentoReptile · 02-25-13, 08:10 PM

At least in your state, "animal" includes reptiles.

dinosaurdammit · 02-25-13, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

At least in your state, "animal" includes reptiles.

yet it doesnt state anything other than food and water and shelter, reptiles cannot survive with food water and shelter, they need proper food/water/environment and husbandry. Anything less is cruel. Other states need to step up. With the wording like it is it says it covers reptiles yet none of this is suitable for their survival.

**Aaron_S** · 02-25-13, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dinosaurdammit

yet it doesnt state anything other than food and water and shelter, reptiles cannot survive with food water and shelter, they need proper food/water/environment and husbandry. Anything less is cruel. Other states need to step up. With the wording like it is it says it covers reptiles yet none of this is suitable for their survival.

When playing with the law you must think and act like the law. Within the definition of "shelter" here:

Shelter | Define Shelter at Dictionary.com

It states: something beneath, behind, or within which a person, animal, or thing is protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc.; refuge.

Note the bold part. That would constitute improper temperatures or humidity for a reptile. You could use this to prove that this place isn't supplying appropriate shelter.

Anyone going to 'war' legally after something should know how to work even the broad wording of the law to their benefit.

You're welcome.

TucsonRES · 02-25-13, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

When playing with the law you must think and act like the law. Within the definition of "shelter" here:

Shelter | Define Shelter at Dictionary.com

It states: something beneath, behind, or within which a person, animal, or thing is protected from storms, missiles, adverse conditions, etc.; refuge.

Note the bold part. That would constitute improper temperatures or humidity for a reptile. You could use this to prove that this place isn't supplying appropriate shelter.

Anyone going to 'war' legally after something should know how to work even the broad wording of the law to their benefit.

You're welcome.

Exactly Aaron_S. That's why I chose the words appropriate food and proper shelter. That includes the requirements without being specific. Because, what happens if you try to spell it all out, is if husbandry recommendations change it would or could be unenforceable and we're back to this type of situation.

**Aaron_S** · 02-25-13, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TucsonRES

Exactly Aaron_S. That's why I chose the words appropriate food and proper shelter. That includes the requirements without being specific. Because, what happens if you try to spell it all out, is if husbandry recommendations change it would or could be unenforceable and we're back to this type of situation.

My point is, it's already in the law. "necessary shelter and food" can be said to mean proper diet and proper temperatures and humidity.

If someone attempted to feed a dog canned beans would anyone say that it equals "necessary" food? No of course not. So why would reptiles be exempt?

You need to find the proper diets by really good sources. Wikipedia doesn't count. Needs to be the likes of peer reviewed papers from scientists or published books. A case could be built upon this but I don't think anyone wants to do that kind of work.

infernalis · 02-25-13, 11:00 PM

When is a ?Rescue? Not a Rescue? | The Reptile Report

Deliver Us from Rescues | The Reptile Report

dinosaurdammit · 02-26-13, 11:47 AM

dunno what good it will do but Change is needed in the wording of animal cruelty & neglect laws and it needs to start with us | causes.com

cgillis · 02-26-13, 12:17 PM

I received an email from animal control (PACC) stating that they will be investigating this further with a reptile veterinarian. I hope that the health and well being improves for these people and the reptiles. Thank you to everyone who took the time to look past all the emotions and drama and speak up about this. I believe there are many ways to successfully house and care for collections of reptiles as pets, rescues or even inventory. These animals do take time and care, most of which isn't as glamorous as our Facebook pages make it out to be.

TucsonRES · 02-26-13, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

My point is, it's already in the law. "necessary shelter and food" can be said to mean proper diet and proper temperatures and humidity.

If someone attempted to feed a dog canned beans would anyone say that it equals "necessary" food? No of course not. So why would reptiles be exempt?"

I agree with and understand what you are saying. The trouble is getting the enforcement officers to go by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Specially when we're not dealing with cute and furry puppies and kitties.

Hopefully when the animal control officer re-inspects them with a reptile vet, their eyes will get opened and begin to change the way they think and handle things.

dinosaurdammit · 02-26-13, 03:07 PM

Daily Reptile News

**Aaron_S** · 02-26-13, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TucsonRES

I agree with and understand what you are saying. The trouble is getting the enforcement officers to go by the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Specially when we're not dealing with cute and furry puppies and kitties.

Hopefully when the animal control officer re-inspects them with a reptile vet, their eyes will get opened and begin to change the way they think and handle things.

You need to keep attempting. I haven't heard of anyone attempting yet.

Also, the guy seems to be willing to talk about his rescue.

Has anyone asked him if he's willing to take on more volunteers to help build better enclosures? Nobody wants to help clean but maybe building the proper enclosures some people will volunteer? Someone can ask local businesses for donations of materials or construction sites for extra wood etc.

jarich · 02-26-13, 04:29 PM

He seems to be willing to make excuses to get out of why he is being harassed. I dont see much more than that on the video. Remember, he is under the gun from the authorities now, so he doesnt seem to be open to talking so much as trying to backpedal. Each question is met with an excuse as to why its not his fault or why there isnt any problem with what he is doing.

Also, HE should be the one to fix his enclosures, not volunteers. Getting the volunteers to do his work results in a quick bandaid fix and doesnt address the larger problem that he has now and has had for over a decade.

dinosaurdammit · 02-26-13, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarich

He seems to be willing to make excuses to get out of why he is being harassed. I dont see much more than that on the video. Remember, he is under the gun from the authorities now, so he doesnt seem to be open to talking so much as trying to backpedal. Each question is met with an excuse as to why its not his fault or why there isnt any problem with what he is doing.

Also, HE should be the one to fix his enclosures, not volunteers. Getting the volunteers to do his work results in a quick bandaid fix and doesnt address the larger problem that he has now and has had for over a decade.

Its not a rescue any more. Its a badly run back yard breeder type pet shop with stupid high fees. He wants people to do the work for him so he can get paid. Its as simple as that. He has other people do the work and he cashes in when ever something finally makes it out of there.