What happens if you cross a carpet to a woma? (dialup)

[Jeff_Favelle]

LOL Greenman!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by montie420
not from this thread, but you said it. yet you argue for hybridization. Hmmmmm

Montie, that was some good detective work....LOL.... This is what I am talking about....

So please Invictus, explain..... Did you deside to get into this dissagreement just to talk from your behind???? I guess you had to jump on the side where there were a few people ganging up on one person......

Or are you just so inexperianced, that you can not form your own veiw and back it up, so you just go with the "flow"?????

It is pretty sad though, either way you look at it.......

Atleast I stick to what I say...... Talk about having your head up your rear....... LOL

Now you can go cry yourself to sleep because you were found out to be the fake that you realy are.....

Next time you should try to be a leader and not a follower.......

Hybrids are known for.....

Low fertility...... FACT

Low hatch/birth rate...... FACT

Low % make it through the first year...... FACT

Muscle and bone structure deformities....... FACT

Internal organ deformities and failure........ FACT

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues..... FACT

Brain damage and other neurological problems...... FACT

If you look at some hybrids, you can see problems right off the bat....... Bugged out eyes, misshapen heads, and even scale deformities...... If that is going on, on the outside, just imagine what is going on that you cant see......

[jazzmachine]

Alright, well I know i'm starting in on this one pretty late. But I just want to ask if you can provide a link or post some documentation as to all these facts you just stated. Personally, I think those animals are outstanding looking. Whether it's right or wrong, that is everybody's opinion. I just want to see all this proof, and than be able to see where you are coming from in regards to these claims. Thanks, and don't mean to stir the pot or anything.

Hybrids are known for.....

Low fertility...... FACT

Low hatch/birth rate...... FACT

Low % make it through the first year...... FACT

Muscle and bone structure deformities....... FACT

Internal organ deformities and failure........ FACT

Misplacement of internal organs and other soft tissues..... FACT

Brain damage and other neurological problems...... FACT

If you look at some hybrids, you can see problems right off the bat....... Bugged out eyes, misshapen heads, and even scale deformities...... If that is going on, on the outside, just imagine what is going on that you cant see...... [/B][/QUOTE]

[M_surinamensis]

I missed a couple pages... so I'm gonna clarify something I asked for...

I want to know, specifically, the number of these carpet x womas that are still alive. Being the first such pairing that I know of, they represent the entire statistical field for the cross and a number here would be easier to look at than numbers with some of the crosses that are more widespread and subject to conjecture.

Few things that also need to be cleared up a bit... So far, every successfully hybridized snake mix is either relatively new... or has been shown to be fertile with other identical hybrids, back to either parent species and even on occassion to an entirely new third species.

The widespread creation of many of these hybrids is comparatively recent and frankly... I don't think anyone ANYONE has sufficiently exhaustive data to start talking about quality of life long term or resulting average lifespans. We can talk about hatch rates and neonate mortality rates with specific clutches used as examples or in generalities but nobody can really say yet just how these animals are going to do long term as indivduals. Can most the colubrid mixes and a few of the more established boid crosses live at least long enough to propogate? Sure. Not quite the same thing as long term stable good health though.

In my personal experience... certain crosses are more prone to overt physical deformities than others but I really can't call my experience with these hybrid snakes really all encompassing. I've encountered maybe a few thousand over the years, some for longer periods of time than others but it's really not enough and the numbers aren't specific enough to say one way or the other that hybrids (on the whole) are or are not inclined towards health problems and physical deffects. Neither can anyone else though.

These two things are actually arguments against the hybridization though... The tendency to show fertility as hybrids IS a cause for concern with regards to the purity of the captive population. Pure forms will probably be avaliable (at least for the remainder of my life) as pure forms... but the way the pet industry works; the majority of animals bought and sold don't have really specific origins that the end consumer is made aware of. The creamcicles are an easy example, although I strongly suspect there are others which simply aren't as obvious... If a random consumer purchases animals from a random vendor and allows them to copulate... with cornsnakes the result is often this mish-mash of recessive genetic traits. Creamcicles will crop up about as often as other "morphs" (with the possible exceptions of amel and anery, as these are the basis for many of the designer morphs and the hets and possible hets are EVERYWHERE) which indicates that there is emoryi blood in the stock the animals came from... and the key piece here is that the parent animals are often never represented as being anything other than normal cornsnakes. The color and pattern is often represented merely as being another recessive trait- mostly through innocent naievity on the part of the dealer.

I don't ever want to find myself in a situation where I have to look specifically for pure animals or those with a well recorded lineage back to collection just to ensure I don't own something unnatural. I do not think it's an unreasonable thing to desire and hybrids very clearly place it in danger.

I'm going to now give a sort of example which may initially seem off topic... but it's related. Ever see what happens when mixing multiple subspecies of say... boa constrictor? The wild populations all have some pretty clear cut scale counts (within a narrow range anyway) and these counts are about the best way of identifying an animal of unknown origins. If you cross two subspecies... there are multiple types of scale counts which may result. You might take the scale count from the mother OR the father... the result may be mixed, within the ranges of the two parent subspecies and essentially averaged out... or there exists a very real possibility for the scale counts to simply be completely new and different, including outside of the ranges the parents would normal express.

And that's with animals of the same species... you take animals from different species, each with their own specialized adaptations to their microhabitat and their behavioral patterns and instinctive responses... and cross them. They might tend to take after one parent species or the other (but which one? Quick, the husbandry depends on it) or something in between... or one of those entirely new sets. Entire traits may be absent depending on which genes from which parent end up expressing a dominance. Heck, conflicting traits can be expressed that represent a very clear health danger if a certain trait is controlled at different locci from the two parent species. As an example... some carpondros (since they were brought up) have the highly specialized and somewhat delicate labial pits of a GTP... and the incination to dig with their faces of a carpet. The result... well, it's definitely not positive. How about things like say... blood x balls. What humidity should they be kept at? How about if different organs take after different parent species? You could get lungs that only operate efficiently when dry and scales that require a high humidity. Or vise versa.

There are also so many potentially hidden traits that we really can barely begin to identify as a specific without a fairly exhaustive dissection of the animal. Which makes it's status as a pet questionable at best. Every single tiny little aspect of a reptile, from it's physical makeup and physiology to it's metabolic requirements and instinctive behaviors is a result of genetics. It's all predetermined- within a very narrow range when coupling animals from the same species... within a rather broader one if the natural forms are ignored.

Put simply... there are a lot of unknowns. Countless IMPORTANT unknowns with these hybrids and each individual animal is a new genetic grab bag of potential tendencies and problems. Since the animals are a risk to both themselves and larger populations and the benefits are minimal (Oooh, a differently colored twice as expensive pet) I really can't reconcile the idea of hybrid creation with anything ethical or moral in the least... and when it comes to ethics, I'm generally pretty open to the idea of subjective interpretation. If the only potential effect was the animals themselves, if they were sterile the way many (not all if i remember right) mules are I'd have less of a problem. My objections would be minimal since it'd be the fates of individual animals in the hands of their individual owners. Since they're potentially able to affect an entire captive gene pool (and wild ones aren't impossible either- florida style) the risk simply isn't worth the reward.

[ravensgait]

jazz if you haven't figured it out yet Greg doesn't have any facts. The only facts that he has provided are that he doesn't know squat about it. He just thinks it's wrong wrong wrong. We could get the top experts in the world on here giving him facts and he still would shout wrong wrong wrong. it's wrong because Greg thinks it's wrong. I'm surprised he didn't take my inbreeding bait


Jeff took pictures of the little dude today if you want I'll email you one. He's doing great already driving his mom crazy. Snakes are a lot easier to keep that's for sure, don't require near the space, don't have to be fed twice a day and sure as heck don't step on you. The really shocking thing is that we have almost half as many horses as snakes and we have a number of snakes lol.. Randy

[RB420]

Very well put Seamus. Its a shame more people don't take the time and effort to think about the animals in question. Sure they may look healthy on the outside but these animals might be living their lives in agony because of this hybridization. So why not stop thinking about ourselves, how much money we can make of of the snakes, and how we think they look cool. think about the animals themselves.

[Gregg M]

Originally posted by ravensgait
jazz if you haven't figured it out yet Greg doesn't have any facts. The only facts that he has provided are that he doesn't know squat about it. He just thinks it's wrong wrong wrong. We could get the top experts in the world on here giving him facts and he still would shout wrong wrong wrong. it's wrong because Greg thinks it's wrong. I'm surprised he didn't take my inbreeding bait

I did not take your inbreeding bait because your posts have nothing to them..... Its like trying to explain this to a preschool kid.... I get pretty much the same result..... Everyone knows how I feel about the subject, so there is no reason for YOU to repeat my statements or objections.....

Give me 1 reason to believe that hybrids are ok and I can give you 20 reasons why it is not ok......

Seamus and myself have pointed out exactly what is wrong and I am sure we have left out atleast a handful..... You are still either too blind, too stupid, or too caught up in what I will type next, to see it...... Which one is it????

I gave you my stance on hybrids and why I and MANY others feel it is not good...... Not one of the people bashing me can give a reason why it is good....... I am not talking about coloration and pattern and that BS hybrid vigor.....LOL...... Tell me how hybrids are a benefit to nature and our captive populations......

All I have gotten so far is...........

#1 I am a pompous a$$

#2 I am an A-hole

#3 Hybrid vigor BS

#4 A sorry attempt to explain hybrid vigor using animals within the same species....LOL

#5 I have an ego problem..... Anyone can tell you different.....

#6 I have no facts

And

#7 My way of talking to people is wrong

Is that all you have for your pro hybrid side????

PATHETIC......

[ravensgait]

Hybrid Vigor or Heterosis,
Increase in such characteristics as size, growth rate, fertility, and yield of a hybrid organism over those of its parents.
Or hybrid vigor Plant and animal breeders exploit heterosis by mating two different purebred lines that have desirable traits. The first-generation offspring generally show, in greater measure, the desired characteristics of both parents.

This is just a simple explanation or definition of Hybrid vigor. Research has shown that in lower organisms and in many higher organisms such as mammals that hybridization leads to hybrid vigor or Heterosis in the get or offspring. There have been some problems with the crossing of some higher animals, Tigers/Lions as an example. Some breedings between these two big cats have produced young with a number of health problems where other breedings have produced animals that showed classic Heterosis. The reason for the difference is not understood as their has been little research done on the cross, their is some speculation that the problem may be that the parents of some of these crosses had health and genetic problems which contributed to the health problems of the get.

In lower animals such as fish, reptiles ETC the studies I saw(did a simple on line search) found very few problems with the offspring of these hybrids. Some of these hybrids were produced in the laboratory as there was no possibility of a natural breeding. It seems that there has been quite a bit of research done on the lower animals IE before trying it on the more difficult species.

Someone mentioned the offspring having half this and half that as environmental needs, I'm sure there is that possibility but from what I read it seems that they take the specific needs of one or the other parent in almost all cases. One hybrid I am very familiar with is Wolf hybrids a higher animal hybrid, the biggest difficulty in these hybrids being the digestive tract IE Wolves couldn't survive on dog food(this was a number of years ago not sure how they would do on modern dog foods) Some hybrid whelps did well on dog food others had to have meat and offal in their diets. The problem was seen mostly those with the higher percentage of Wolf. Which when you think about it isn't all that big a deal.

Now this is information I found doing a couple of on line searches heck there are researchers out there who list their email address so you can ask questions. I started the search by going to Britannica Concise Encyclopedia web site and looking for the definition of Hybrid Vigor so if ya really want to know knock yourself out and take a look sure shows how little people like Greg know about this subject.

Someone mentioned that the reason someone would want a hybrid snake is because it's different! gee isn't that a big reason we choose what ever animal we prefer. I like Emeralds, Chondros and Rainbows and yeah I really like the different looking ones High white Emeralds or patternless, High yellow or blue Chondros and really love BRBs with bulls eyes. Seems like most nay sayers here are looking for some reason to knock hybrids without a real reason for doing such IE they just think it's wrong.

Hybrids occur in the wild a somewhat rare and one would think incompatible cross that I have seen is White tail and Mule Deer it happens more commonly these days with the explosion of the White tails range. If you know anything about these two animals they have very different dietary needs yet the crosses seem to do alright. There are many others that occur in the wild gee many species are the mixing of two other species who's range overlapped the offspring were better suited to the habitat in this overlapping area and thus through time we have a new species or subspecies. OK fingers are getting tired. For those who really want to know the facts they are out there and easy to find. Randy

[Gregg M]

Again, there is nothing to suggest "hybid vigor" in snakes..... Infact there is more leaning to the opposite..... So how did you turn a dictionary word into hybrid snakes are superior to purebloods???? I can do the same thing...... I think I have proven I know more on the subject than you would ever care to admit.....

What do I have behind me???? Years of schooling and even more years of keeping and breeding experiance...... I know that you cant learn everything from a book...... That is where my hands on experiance comes in handy...

Its not that I do not know anything on this subject..... Its that MY foundings after YEARS of being in the hobby are different from peoples that have much less experiance.....

So again, what do you have to back your claims, besides a dictionary meaning????

I am not talking about mules or hybrid wolves or plant hybrids or fish...... I am talking about hybrid snakes...... Especially the ones that would never under any circumstance ever breed without man putting a spoon in the pot and mixin stuff up......

Seems as though you like to type up huge paragraphs with no substance......

[ravensgait]

LMAO having a hard time typing after that post Greg LOLOOLOLOL do you bother to read your own drivel??

I even fixed your spelling for you in this quote well most of it.
(Again, there is nothing to suggest "hybrid vigor" in snakes..... In fact there is more learning to the opposite..... So how did you turn a dictionary word into hybrid snakes are superior to pure bloods???? I can do the same thing...... I think I have proven I know more on the subject than you would ever care to admit.....)
Gee sorry Greg but the information out there says your really really wrong OPPS. Gee gave more than one example from my personal experience and dang my experience is with higher life forms which are way more complicated . What I've read these past two day and my experience tell me you Know not of which you speak (or type in this case)Where have you proven anything????

What a Joke tell us oh mighty one just what is all this experience you have with Hybrid snakes? Come on no more of It's wrong it's wrong I SAID it's WRONG lol I did a simple search and found That your are FULL of it and that reply is the best your superior intellect could come up with?? LMAO. One thing I learned long ago is that those who have to say they are more intelligent and have this and that degree usually are well not being very truthful.

You have yet to write one thing to back up any and all claims you continue to make. Keep on a spouting Greg the more your type the more you prove how little you know. Man you make this fun and easy.

Now why don't you do some real research and post some real information. I know you don't want to because if you did you'd either have to post stuff you made up or admit you didn't have a clue about the subject you've been raving on about.

Research is easy now days you just have to type in questions on your computer and low and behold there is information out there to save people such as yourself from ignorance. Give it a try it wont bite you. I'll help you some -there is information out there about the draw backs of crossing some types of animals. Sorry to say snakes were not in that category well I did see something about trying to cross egg layers and well live bearers, didn't read it though. So your up dude lets see if your up to it. still LMAO
Randy

[Gregg M]

Here are 22 references you can check out just on ONE of the many issues involving hybids in "lower life forms"....... Low or no fertility..... I did half the work for you..... Now you do the rest..... Now maybe you will actually learn something......

1 S. C. Bhalla and G. B. Craig, Can. J. Genet. Cytol. 12, 425 (1970) [ISI][Medline] .
2 L. E. Munstermann, in Genetic Maps, S. J. O'Brien, Ed. (Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, Cold Spring Harbor, NY, 1990), pp. 179-183; D. W. Severson, et al., J. Hered. 84, 241 (1993) [ISI][Medline] .
4 See, for instance, T. Tadano, Jpn. J. Genet. 59, 165 (1984) ; T. C. Quinn and G. B. Craig, J. Hered. 62, 3 (1971) [Medline] . A full list of the Aedes species examined is available from the authors.
5 L. Zheng, et al., Science 261, 605 (1993) [ISI][Medline] ; L. Zheng, et al., Genetics 143, 941 (1996) [Abstract/Free Full Text] ; 6 G. C. Lanzaro, et al., J. Hered. 82, 349 (1991) [ISI][Medline] .
7 J. B. S. Haldane, J. Genet. 12, 101 (1922) ; J. Coyne, Nature 355, 511 (1992) [CrossRef][ISI][Medline] .
8 C.-I. Wu and A. W. Davis, Am. Nat. 142, 187 (1993) [CrossRef][ISI]; C.-I. Wu, N. A. Johnson, M. F. Palopoli, Trends Ecol. Evol. 11, 411 (1996) .
9 C. C. Laurie, Genetics 147, 937 (1997) [Free Full Text] .
10 H. J. Muller, Biol. Symp. 6, 71 (1942) .
11 H. A. Orr, Evolution 47, 1606 (1993) [ISI] .
12 M. Turelli and H. A. Orr, Genetics 140, 389 (1995) [Abstract/Free Full Text] ; H. A. Orr and M. Turelli, ibid. 143, 613 (1996) [Free Full Text].
13 H. A. Orr, Nature 361, 532 (1993) [CrossRef][ISI][Medline] .
14 H. Hollocher and C.-I. Wu, Genetics 143, 1243 (1996) [Abstract/Free Full Text] .
15 M. Turelli and D. J. Begun, ibid. 147, 1799 (1997) [Abstract/Free Full Text].
16 H. A. Orr, Gen. Res. 59, 73 (1992) .
17 M. B. Coulthart and R. S. Singh, Mol. Biol. Evol. 5, 182 (1988) [Abstract] .
18 J. R. True, B. S. Weir, C. C. Laurie, Genetics 142, 819 (1996) [Abstract/Free Full Text] .
19 H. A. Orr, Annu. Rev. Ecol. Syst. 28, 195 (1997) [CrossRef][ISI].
We included only hybridizations showing clear evidence of postzygotic isolation. Isolation was classified by the following criteria. Hybrid sterility: Male-affected cases included hybridizations in which (i) F1 hybrid males were completely sterile, whereas F1 hybrid females were fertile, or (ii) F1 male fertility was much lower than F1 female fertility (as seen in crossing tests). The reverse held for female-affected sterility. Both-sexes-affected sterility included cases in which both hybrid males and females (i) were completely sterile; (ii) suffered similar and significant reductions in fertility relative to intraspecific controls; or (iii) had degenerate testes or sperm (or both) and ovaries that precluded crossing tests of fertility (nondegenerate gonads were never used as evidence of fertility, though fully atrophied gonads were assumed to be sterile). Hybrid inviability: Analogous rules were used to classify inviability. To prevent the confounding of hybrid inviability with postmating, prezygotic barriers to fertilization, we only included hybridizations in which eggs were embryonated. Reciprocal species crosses (where available) were scored separately.
J. A. Coyne and H. A. Orr, in Speciation and Its Consequences, D. Otte and J. Endler, Eds. (Sinauer, Sunderland, MA, 1989), pp. 180-207.
20 W. G. Eberhard, Sexual Selection and Animal Genitalia (Harvard Univ. Press, Cambridge, MA, 1985).
The average Aedes hybridization might, by chance, be older than the average Anopheles one. It is difficult to distinguish this possibility from the dominance theory, because the latter also predicts that Aedes will take longer than Anopheles to evolve postzygotic isolation (13).
Aedes routinely shows single-sex effects for hybrid sterility but not for hybrid inviability. This within-genus contrast cannot be explained by the notion that species pairs in one genus are older than those in the other.
21 G. Davidson et al., in Genetics of Insect Vectors of Disease, J. W. Wright and R. Pal, Eds. (Elsevier, New York, 1967), pp. 211-250.
22 J. B. Kitzmiller, G. Frizzi, R. H. Baker, in Genetics of Insect Vectors of Disease, J. W. Wright and R. Pal, Eds. (Elsevier, New York, 1967), pp. 151-210; J. B. Kitzmiller, Adv. Genet. 18, 315 (1975)

P.S. What does my spelling have to do with anything???? Is that you attempt to make me seem less smart???? Or is it because you know your posts have NO SUBSTANCE and you could not back up your view if, well, if you were standing behind it so you figured if you would correct my spelling, it might make your claim valid, somehow........... LOL....

[Big_V]

I do see a one minor problem with your assumptions though Gregg. You say that the cross breeding of such species is useless unless it is for scientific purposes ( not for profit ) but the keeping of the animals in captivity is science at its most basic level. Ecology is still science no matter how you look at it. Science is based on experimentation and that is exactly what this is. Experimentation with animal genetics to see the outcome.
But,
I am going to have to side with Gregg on the hybridization not being good for species that would never cross paths in the wild. Doing such is beyond to scope of real life circumstances. If evolution had meant these species to cross breed it would have happened naturally. I'm fine with tests on transgenic animals, provided the experiments are well thought out and will benefit us. Hybrids are usually less fit, and infertile as a rule if the species have different chromosomes. (<-- FACT)

BUT I do believe that individuals are entitled to breed animals that they keep in the way in which they want. We as consumers are the ones who reserve the rights to purchase such animals, and if one does not believe in such practice should refrain from purchasing and dealing with those individuals. These animals are polluting the captive gene pool and it is our responsiblity as consumers of this industry to curve the standards towards what we believe to be right.
We need to take a step back and refrain from making these designer animals for the sake of profit only. It is the well being of the animals that should be the primary concern, because isnt that the biggest goal in keeping these amazing creatures. Too see them in all their NATURAL BEAUTY. This hybridization should stick to laboratories and to those with credentials to claim facts and statistics, not individuals trying to play god.

This debate should stop all the name calling because it really is not what this site is about and hopefully will not come to this.

[ravensgait]

chromosomes Ah not really the only living creatures with matching chromosomes are identical twins or clones! man if you look at just the differences in men and women it makes you wonder how we breed.

Um Greg you make a good case for Mules but um they tend to be healthier stronger and most would agree smarted as well as longer lived than their parents. A lot of the text you reference Greg is very old and since much of it is about bugs lets take an example the Mayfly an insect that once it reaches its final form or adulthood lives and reproduces in 24 hours and dies. they've done a lot of research on mayflies the main reason being well to put it simply to find the fountain of youth. Well to make a long story short they have through hybridization and other tweaking found they can extend their life span in some case for weeks(this was an old study so who knows what they have done since 94 with these guys.

Now I never said that every hybrid was healthy ETC heck there are plenty of examples of it turning out rather bad. But the research in reptiles Or I should say the research done on reptiles not to distantly related has shown that they are healthy and viable. In many case they are mules but this in no way affects the health of the animal. Greg go find someone who has a few equine Mules and take a look at what is possible and is more the norm.

Compared to other animals there isn't near the research being or having been done in reptiles as has been done in animals more useful to man .. That should change now that they have found a lizard that of all things is being researched to help Alzheimer's. Don't know the details on that one saw something in the news about it this past week.

And Greg the unwillingness or inability to use a simple spell check? well you tell me what that says about you. Hey I know I can't spell for beans , it's why I have spell check so I look a little less like a moron Now come on give us some information on hybrid snakes with all these problems you fear. You references above sure didn't.

Like I said anyone wants to know what this is all about do a simple search and you'll see both sides. You can find real information and not have to rely on the truth or lack of it that we post in this thread. Weather the cross that got this discussion going works out time will tell but don't let people who hate just for the sake of hating make up your mind for you as they say don't be a sheep and follow along. go and find out for yourself. As we all know most hate is based on ignorance so make an informed decision and not one made for you by all the people in this thread who together know far less than we really should.

Now for myself still LMAO over Greg's last couple post but in all fairness most my knowledge comes from my experience with the higher hybrids though I have an interest in hybrid reptiles thinking of trying a cross myself, anyway most that I know now comes from my on line research the last couple of days it was easy to find and and there is a lot out there. Going to email a couple of researchers about my idea and get their thoughts on what I'd like to try. I was amazed to find so many willing to share what they know and answer question.
Randy

[Gregg M]

You are the one who is funny..... Here is some more science for you......

Postzygotic Isolating Mechanisms
3 types
Hybrid inviability - embryos die early
Hybrid sterility - adults are somatically vigorous but can not reproduce
Hybrid breakdown - adults are somatically vigorous and can reproduce but future offspring fail to reproduce
Hybrid inviability
Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - Sheep and goat - hybrid embryo dies soon after fertilization
Moore (1949) - Rana frogs and varying degrees of inviability (die at different times after fertilization)
Sonneborn (1900's) - Paramecia hybrids dies soon after conjugation
Hybrid sterility
Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - horse x donkey - mule is sterile, problems occur before meiosis
Karpechenko (1927) - radish x cabbage - sterile offspring, problems during meiosis or tetraploid individuals


that can not back cross

Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - Drosophila
D. pseudoobscura x D. persimilis - hybrid males unable to produce sperm but females are fertile
Hybrid Breakdown
Dobzhansky et al. (1977) - Drosophila
D. pseudoobscura x D. persimilis - hybrid females are fertile but offspring of the F1 generation experience problems
Stephens (1950) - different species of Cotton (Gossypium) experience breakdown

When it comes to this type of info, dates are meaningless..... If you did the same studies today you would get the same results....

[ravensgait]

Greg you remind me of the teacher in the Peanuts cartoon Blah Blah Blah,, Blah Blah. ETC ETC Yep there have been failures but look at all the successes we see many in our every day lives. Now come on where are some studies on snakes we are talking about snakes. LMAO Gee Greg you make this fun. You know there are still people who believe the world is flat! That the Moon walks were staged! Just cuz you want to believe this or that just doesn't make it so.

I like your study on Mules now anyone with half a brain knows a little something about mules and the success story they have been. Take your pick the corn in your cornflakes or in the can you buy, the steak you eat, the cotton in the cloths you wear. I could go on and on with the successes of hybridization, rice, beets ETC ETC ETC ETC. Yep there were failures but ah look at all the successes we see every day.

Greg believe what you want my reason for answering your post was to hopefully get those with a real interest in the subject to do a little research and take your Blah Blah Blah for what it is someone who for no real reason just doesn't like it .
Randy