First Fresh Kill experience (WARNING - graphic detail)

[TheRedDragon]

Originally posted by milenko_78
ps: why do so many people prefer pre-killed? is it because the snake might get bit? mine does quite well on live and could eat a whole cage full!

Because accidents CAN and DO happen. Even a mere mouse can do some damage to a BP. If any rodent decides it wants to defend itself, it CAN and WILL cause SEVERE damage to the snake no matter what precautions you take.

Go to this website:

http://www.homestead.com/koalaskritt...vefeeding.html

That site has graphic pics of a BP that's been severely injured by a mouse.



And take a look at these pictures also of a Boa Constrictor that has its face and body gnawed by a rat:






Hopefully that will help answer your question.

[jay76]

It's amazing how many people prefer to take chances, isn't it?

[Invictus]

Originally posted by djc3674
Whats apparent Invictus is with every post..you become more and more of a self-righteous jerk! Who do you think you are judging me and how I treat my snakes?

Who do I think I am? I'm someone who cares enough about my snakes to not put them in harm's way, that's who I am. I want you to take a good, long look at TheRedDragon's post above, and then give me ONE GOOD REASON to feed your snake live unless it is an absolute last resort. And don't give me any garbage about how feeding live is more natural for the snake. You've captivated it, thus stripping it of a natural life. And if I come across as being self-righteous, it's because seeing pictures of mangled snakes absolutely breaks my heart, and seeing people like you advocate live feeding when you know damn well your snake will take prekilled without an issue really gets under my skin. So forgive me for being passionate about snakes.

All of my animals are well cared for and very healthy...so you can shove your comments up your ***.

I'm sure the ball python in RedDragon's post was healthy at one time too. And all it took was one angry mouse.....

I do not feed my snakes live prey for my own enjoyment for your information.

Then like I said above, enlighten me. Give me a reason not to believe that you're putting a snake in harm's way for no good reason.

Just because you have your own method or opionion on how to feed your reptiles..you shouldnt pass judgement because someone prefers another way.

My method is 100% guaranteed to not kill the snake. Yours is just a matter of time before it does kill the snake.

You come across very pig-headed and I am actually thinking about just not posting on this site anymore...I dont need to be ridiculed or put down when you dont agree with one of my posts. I dont need to deal with your bullshit (Invictass)

ROFLMAO!!!! Invictass? I bet you were up all night thinking of that one. Very witty. Your hero cookie is in the oven.

Yes, I am pig-headed when it comes to people putting their snakes in danger. I love snakes more than you can even begin to imagine, so yes, I get outright nasty when I feel someone is doing something stupid. But like I said, if you can give me one good reason to give a live rat or rabbit to a snake, I'll apologize in full, and retract everything I've ever said about feeding prekilled prey. Sound like a deal?

[reptilesalonica]

Yeap! I can feel your anger bud. It's so painful seen those poore snakes in such condition. Althouth we cannot condemn live feeding in some cases. Many snakes until learn accept f/t mice must feed on live mice, hamsters or gerbils.
To those keepers that want to offer live just for ammusement, they must learn to understand snakes reactions, (btw i would never tried that with rats) they must "read" the snake (each snake is different from another, even in the same spp.), so, they must "read" well every snake to know when it is ready for a strike. Hunger is not the only indication, if a snake is stressed or away from his favourite spot may not strike even if it's hungry.
This is a risk you are taken...with mice the risk is smaller but then, again, a mouse can scratch, bite and draw blood. This is no big deal since the small wounds will cure in some days, but...do you want to do something like that to your snakes?
Maybe you should reconsider that.
~Greg~

[TheRedDragon]

Amen Jesus (Invictus)!!!!!!

[hip]

But like I said, if you can give me one good reason to give a live rat or rabbit to a snake, I'll apologize in full, and retract everything I've ever said about feeding prekilled prey. Sound like a deal?


I will pose a question to you Invictus Just say that you aquire a wild caught Suriname in a rescue that will only eat live for the first 6 months in your care and it takes almost one full year to switch that snake to frozen thawed Would this make me unworthy to own this snake? Would this make me a moron? would this be self serving for my amusement? I was just wondering. This is an actual snake that I own away on breeding loan to Chris Marshell he knows what I went through with this boa and I would like to hear his comments on the issue as well. It sometimes does happen that some snakes will not switch does this invite starvation? F/t is the way to go in my opinnion but what do you do if all the effort is for not? Please let me know



Hip

[djc3674]

Invcitus:
First off..that boa in the pic..was not damaged that badly by a live feeding. The boa probably refused food..and its owner probably left the rat in with the snake unattended and the rat got hungry and chewed the crap outta the snake. Anybody that would do that is definately a moron and doesnt deserve to own reptiles.
So you cant compare the two. When I feed my snakes..I stay very close and watch them until the prey is dead. I havent had a problem yet..accept for the way I had to kill the last rat.
And as I said...my boa will take p/k rats...so I will be switching him over.

So Invictus...if something happens to my snakes because I feed live, then you can say "I told ya so" Until then, dont be so damn opinionated. YOU have your way...I have mine.
At some point in time..I will switch my hog over to p/k or f/t as well..but as for my BP...well thats a whole different strory.

My method is 100% guaranteed to not kill the snake. Yours is just a matter of time before it does kill the snake.

As for my baby hog, he feeds on live mice and does very well...there is no way in hell that little mouse is going to kill him..gimme a break...he attacks and kills them and within 20 seconds they are dead. If any of my snakes refused to eat right then and there..you better believe I am taking the prey item out of there enclosure.

You've captivated it, thus stripping it of a natural life

I did not strip my snakes of a natural life you idiot. They were born in captivity..and if I did not own them...then someone else would and either way..they would be in an enclosure.

ROFLMAO!!!! Invictass? I bet you were up all night thinking of that one. Very witty. Your hero cookie is in the oven.

Actually..it came to me instantly....I call em as I see em. Oh and I hope its a chocolate chip cookie!

Yes, I am pig-headed when it comes to people putting their snakes in danger. I love snakes more than you can even begin to imagine, so yes, I get outright nasty when I feel someone is doing something stupid. But like I said, if you can give me one good reason to give a live rat or rabbit to a snake, I'll apologize in full, and retract everything I've ever said about feeding prekilled prey. Sound like a deal?

Your pig-headed when anybody does something different than you. I've read some of your posts..and you friggin THINK you know-it-all. I dont need to make any deals and I dont need to supply you with reasons....I know you think your Steve Irwin ...but give it a rest!!!

[Invictus]

Fine, I'm pig-headed. Whatever. At least I don't resort to petty name-calling like "Invictass". That was just sad, dude. And I don't think I know it all. If I did, I wouldn't ask questions. But there are some things that I do know, and I do debate strongly. If you can't handle that, why don't you just go cry to your mommy, or see if you can come up with another witty name for me. And by the way, learn the difference between "your" and "you're".

I dont need to make any deals and I dont need to supply you with reasons

Don't need to, or can't? I'd say it's the latter. You can't come up with one good reason to feed live, and you know you can't. And by the way, if you think for one second that supervision somehow makes it safer for your snake, just wait until the first time a rat or rabbit REALLY flips out. They will have your snake's eyes gouged out before you even know that movement occurred. Supervision just means you get to WATCH your snake get injured. If you think that after a rat attacks you can do anything about it, you are sadly fooling yourself.

Hip - As I said in my post, if you review, I advocate feeding live only as a last resort. If it's the difference between starvation and live feeding, obviously a live feeding must be done. I have a great deal of sympathy for the W/C specimens that just will not take prekilled right away. However, I have a 4 year old Kenyan that the owner fed live to all the snake's life. FIRST time I gave her a fresh kill (hence this thread to begin with!) she took it like a champ. But before we could convert her, she had to take a couple of live feedings. But again, it was a last resort.

[djc3674]

If you can't handle that, why don't you just go cry to your mommy, or see if you can come up with another witty name for me. And by the way, learn the difference between "your" and "you're".

I can handle it just fine...what I do not like is the comments you made originally just because you dont agree. The whole topic of this post what a "fresh kill experience" I gave my story..and you had rude things to say.
btw...im at work with a million different things to do..so I am typing very quickly..so if I misspell something or do not use the correct punctuation...forgive me Invctus please...I know you think your perfect and never make mistakes..but some of us do. and the invictass comment wasnt to be petty...just that I think your an ***.

Just one reason..to feed live..is to get a neonate to begin feeding. The breeder I got my hog island boa from..couldnt get these snakes to eat..he tried for a month on p/k or f/t....I had the snake for 3 days...gave him a live fuzzy..and he ate immediatley.

Another is that its more nutritious. The f/t rat that I feed my boa did not hold him over past a week and he was already acting like he is hungry and wants to eat again...and the rat was 2 lbs. This may not have anything to do with it being frozen but it just seemed that was the case.

BTW..I never said that there wasnt danger in feeding live prey items...I just prefer not to have huge frozen rats in my freezer lying next to the chicken nuggets.
The small mice are not going to kill my snake..why cant you see that. They dont even stand a chance...he strikes them in the face everytime and its over quick. Almost each time they feed..I hold the prey by its tail..and let the snake grab them by the face.

For some reason..you associate live feeding ..with not caring about the snakes..and thats totally untrue. I love my snakes..and would never want to see them get hurt or killed...no matter what you may say about me.

[Invictus]

Originally posted by djc3674
Just one reason..to feed live..is to get a neonate to begin feeding. The breeder I got my hog island boa from..couldnt get these snakes to eat..he tried for a month on p/k or f/t....I had the snake for 3 days...gave him a live fuzzy..and he ate immediatley.

Ok now you're not reading what I typed either. I didn't say anything about live pinkies or fuzzies. Hell, I'm a strong advocate of live pinkies and fuzzies. If you look back to my original post, I said that anyone who feeds live RATS or RABBITS doesn't deserve to be owning a snake. Even adult mice can be extremely fast, extremely foul-tempered, and extremely nasty when they are about to be eaten, and thus should always be prekilled unless your snake leaves you no choice.

Another is that its more nutritious. The f/t rat that I feed my boa did not hold him over past a week and he was already acting like he is hungry and wants to eat again...and the rat was 2 lbs. This may not have anything to do with it being frozen but it just seemed that was the case.

Ever heard of fresh killed? It's the same as your snake killing it, except that your snake doesn't end up being the one who gets killed. Just the rat gets that privilege.

BTW..I never said that there wasnt danger in feeding live prey items...I just prefer not to have huge frozen rats in my freezer lying next to the chicken nuggets.

And this is evidently more important to you than the safety of your snake. Buy a mini-freezer exclusively for frozen prey. They're not that expensive. You can even get used ones for free if you pick up a bargain finder, or read the classifieds in the newspaper. Hell, try EBay. Keep them on a separate rack in the freezer. Look at all the options available to you! You still haven't justified why giving a live rat or rabbit is a good way to go about feeding.

This is the main reason why it is so important to get the snakes feeding on prekilled prey when they are young. It's so you don't have to try and convert them when they are older and need to be fed a large prey item.

So before you misquote me again, let me recap:

1) Feeding live is a LAST resort, not a FIRST one.
2) Live pinkies and fuzzies have about as much chance of hurting a snake as you have of being struck by lightning on a clear day. Hoppers and above, however, have a VERY good chance of harming your snake.
3) I don't think I know everything, but this is an issue I am very passionate about.
4) I did not say you were a moron, I said wake the hell up. I also did not call you stupid, I said you were doing something stupid. I'm not trying to attack you here. I'm attacking your point of view on this matter which, thus far, has been very poorly justified on your behalf.

So if you disagree, fine. You disagree. At least back it up. So far all you've done is say "Well that's the way I like to do it." You don't even have the slightest clue what it is that you are disagreeing with, nor why you disagree. You're just digging in your heels because that's the way you've always done it, and no snakes have died yet, so it must be right. (Oh, except of course for the poor chicken nuggets. I guess that's a reason, albeit a pretty inane one.)

You know, one day, you and I will probably sit down for a beer, and look back on this and laugh. I'm not trying to make enemies with you. I'm trying to debate a point. I honestly hope that you're not taking this personally, though it appears that you are.

[marisa]

Guys I think the problem here is obvious. When talking about people who feed live you are both talking about different things. There are two types of reasons to feed live.

1. Because you don't know any better, the persons snake will eat F/T but the owner still feeds live.

2. WC or tough specimens eating live. There are MANY difficult speices out there that MUST take live for at least a small while if not a very long time.

These are two VERY different situations. A person in situation one might be an idiot, but in the second situation, the owner is doing what is right and the only option.

marisa

[MouseKilla]

Invictus,

Again, great thread man, 8 pages of bitter debate is something to be proud of. As a bonus I must reluctantly admit that you may yet change my mind on this. As I'm sure you remember we debated the potential danger of mice (not rats or larger, we agreed those were dangerous). I have been in the practice of feeding higher numbers of relatively small live prey for a few years now, believing that the hunting experience was better for the animal. I never imagined (and still have a hard time believing) that a mouse was capable of injuring a snake large enough to eat it. I perceived the risk of this to be so small that it was out weighed by the benefits of letting the animal hunt. Now I can hear you screaming at the monitor all the way out here in Ontario: "WHAT GODDAM BENEFITS??" Well I guess the best way I can try to explain it is that I felt it would improve the animal's quality of life. It's something you can't measure but I know when I do anything for my snakes like adding cage furniture, I'm thinking about whether it will make them "happier". I'm not saying that it's definitely worth the risk to feed live, in fact all these horror stories are honestly giving me second thoughts. I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't something that's for my benefit, it's out of an honest effort to do what is best for the animal.

[Invictus]

Now I can hear you screaming at the monitor all the way out here in Ontario: "WHAT GODDAM BENEFITS??"

LOL... I think I heard the same thing from Linds and Marisa when I was talking about the benefits of housing corn snakes together!

Thanks for the comments, man.