Oh my god

[ilovemypets1988]

thanx dd, ill watch it now

[DOBERMAN]

Large enclosures
adequate food and light
no mites
Certainly the cleanup could be improved on - hence why he would have posted a job offer
Yes maybe a skinny boa and an iguana with a partially missing lower jaw.
which is not out of the ordinary - it is a rescue of course- he didn't cause it - and at least he's giving them shelter and food whereas alot of people would have thrown them in a dumpster
Looks like there is a lot of effort and money he puts into the operations which he can be commended for.
Our local zoo, which is a lot bigger than this operation, and has a number of reptiles, is, when observed behind the official public areas, in worse condition than this
But I suppose the bias and pre decided consensus may still prevail.
I am seeing a witch hunt.
Jarich.....I'm not old - that has nothing to do with being "old school". Old school is when you don't let emotion run your mouth or your actions, and you try your best to remedy or assist in a situation instead of opting out or calling in the cavalry.
But I will bow out of this thread at this point. this is tiresome

[dinosaurdammit]

Originally Posted by DOBERMAN

Large enclosures
adequate food and light
no mites
Certainly the cleanup could be improved on - hence why he would have posted a job offer
Yes maybe a skinny boa and an iguana with a partially missing lower jaw.
which is not out of the ordinary - it is a rescue of course- he didn't cause it - and at least he's giving them shelter and food whereas alot of people would have thrown them in a dumpster
Looks like there is a lot of effort and money he puts into the operations which he can be commended for.
Our local zoo, which is a lot bigger than this operation, and has a number of reptiles, is, when observed behind the official public areas, in worse condition than this
But I suppose the bias and pre decided consensus may still prevail.
I am seeing a witch hunt.
Jarich.....I'm not old - that has nothing to do with being "old school". Old school is when you don't let emotion run your mouth or your actions, and you try your best to remedy or assist in a situation instead of opting out or calling in the cavalry.
But I will bow out of this thread at this point. this is tiresome

you can give any animal shelter and food, but what if its the WRONG food or the WRONG type of habitat, then its no good for ANYTHING.

[dinosaurdammit]

Later tonight dan krull is posting an interview, and reptile daily will be posting tuesday about this. In the video you can see the conditions and he has lied to many people. I know he personally lied to me and then lied to people who contacted him for an interview before the video was up, in the video he is caught in his lies.

A lie off hand is "cleaning day" he said saturday, and told c.gillis that but then recanted and basically said like every other day and saturday. This is a lie. That much filth shouldnt be there. In the film which is now fixed and not tiny you can see the filth and the amount of cages he has, he has probably about a hundred. I plan on later trying to count all the cages and animal related items. None are used, they sit outside getting ruined. He could sell them all and do well for himself but he just seems to hold on to them like the animals. I dont think he sees the animals as animals but rather items that he cannot part with thus the EXPENSIVE "adoption" cost. I hope both he and the animals get the help they need and that he is not allowed to run a "rescue" any more. It is clear he doesnt have the time or resources to do so and doesnt seem to give much care in their husbandry.

[Jeepers]

"Oh yeah, this rainforest biome reptile is peerrrrfectly fine and happy in this large desert biome enclosure. It's big and has light, perfect!"

... I'm just saying, think about what you pretty much just said here.

[StudentoReptile]

The overlying issue is one discussed before, in that cold-blooded creatures, such as reptiles, are not recognized as "animals" under the Animal Welfare Act, and therefore, it is difficult to enforce any kind of neglect or cruelty charges in these situations. Unfortunately, people like this in the reptile community (and I would say the "outer fringes" of the community) will always continue do things like this because they can. Who is going to stop them? USDA? Humane Societies? Posh. We can only police ourselves and obviously, one can see how well we do that.

In these situations, my mentality is this: the people likely are not going to change (unless they are forced by unrelated means), so what you then have to focus on is the animals themselves. Wanna help? Go volunteer and help care for them. You're doing it for the herps, not the scumbag who owns them. Don't think about being an "enabler" because like I said, whether you are there or not, he will be and so will the animals...still living in all that filth.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by StudentoReptile

The overlying issue is one discussed before, in that cold-blooded creatures, such as reptiles, are not recognized as "animals" under the Animal Welfare Act, and therefore, it is difficult to enforce any kind of neglect or cruelty charges in these situations. Unfortunately, people like this in the reptile community (and I would say the "outer fringes" of the community) will always continue do things like this because they can. Who is going to stop them? USDA? Humane Societies? Posh. We can only police ourselves and obviously, one can see how well we do that.

In these situations, my mentality is this: the people likely are not going to change (unless they are forced by unrelated means), so what you then have to focus on is the animals themselves. Wanna help? Go volunteer and help care for them. You're doing it for the herps, not the scumbag who owns them. Don't think about being an "enabler" because like I said, whether you are there or not, he will be and so will the animals...still living in all that filth.

Well said.

Apparently no one should do that though. It's too much work.

[TucsonRES]

I just want to say that, in my opinion the animals should be removed from his care. This man is an adult and should do the right thing to begin with not rely on DD or some volunteer to come and take care of his mess. If he was in over his head, he has options available, the Phoenix Herp Society offered to come and take some of the animals. Had he responded to my emails, I would have offered to take the 11 Red Eared Sliders he has in what looks like a 29g long tank in the video. He has legitimate help available to him if he wants it.
I think that DD, has put a lot of work into trying to make the conditions better. She did clean and feed some of the animals before she couldn't take it anymore. She has spent days and days trying to see what she could to help the animals and she hasn't given up despite some of the comments posted here and on other forums.
I'm glad that there was some improvement in their enclosures but he has a long way to go. As StudentoReptile stated:"...my mentality is this: the people likely are not going to change (unless they are forced by unrelated means)..."
But instead of passing judgement on DD or the guy running the rescue, the real issue is the well being of the animals. Because he didn't break the law, the animals had enclosures, food and water they can't be forcefully or legally be removed at this time.

In Arizona, that's exactly the way the law reads-
Title 13 - Criminal Code, CHAPTER 29 - OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER,
13-2910. Cruelty to animals; interference with working or service animal; classification; definitions
G. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Animal" means a mammal, bird, reptile or amphibian.
2. "Cruel mistreatment" means to torture or otherwise inflict unnecessary serious physical injury upon an animal or to kill an animal in a manner that causes protracted suffering to the animal.
3. "Cruel neglect" means to fail to provide an animal with necessary food, water or shelter.

The law doesn't even specify, though it should be common sense, clean water or the word appropriate or correct when dealing with food and enclosures.
It is up to us in the reptile community to educate the Animal Control people or whomever is responsible for enforcement in your area as to the actual requirements and care involved with reptiles. If you have a club or organization that has meetings invite them out. Let's educate them, so that in the future when they get a complaint they aren't just looking for food, water and shelter. Even if they can't charge them initially, they can at least educate them.

[Aaron_S]

I'm all for someone taking some animals away but it isn't happening at this time it seems.

Next option is to get a team of volunteers to help out so it's less labour intensive on each individual person. Maybe at that time they could talk him into giving up some of the animals or increasing the care of them.

[jarich]

Really Aaron?! The guy who says that buying animals from pet stores propagates further animal abuse is now saying that instead of letting this guy's animals die to get him shut down, says people should instead now go in and fix his problem so that he is able to take in new animals and continue torturing others? Sounds like a convenient change of heart.

There is no fixing this guy's problems. He has been at this abuse for 12 years. He is such an obvious liar and animal abuser, who thinks he is doing nothing wrong and has no need to change anything. I'm shocked by the fact that you would rather be right and prove a point than admit the fact that this man keeps these animals in squalor and should not be helped to continue this abuse in anyway. Take those volunteers and picket at this man's front door. Take them and get them to volunteer calling city council until he is shut down. That will make a difference to the future of reptiles in this area. Everything else is a bandaid.

[cgillis]

Did you people who say this "rescue" needs volunteers even watch the new video? There aren't very many animals there and he tells me while I'm filming that the iguana with no bottom jaw is the only rescue he's taken in in 3 years. Many people I know have more pet reptiles than this and are able to maintain the health of their collection without any help. The people running this have some medical and financial difficulties and shouldn't be trying to help any animals before they help themselves. My calling this a hoard has nothing to do with how many animals are here but the mentality around how he keeps them. All of these animals have other options available to them and help has been offered to these people so they are not burdened by running a rescue any longer. Yes more can be done. Anyone who has seen the video of this place after PACC found it acceptable can see that it is not. You can email PACC at contactpacc@pima.gov and ask them why they turned down help from the Phoenix herp society with this investigation. PACC is our local animal control and their staff isn't trained on the proper keeping of reptiles, to them it's turtle, lizard, snake and they really need help identifying what species these animals are, where their from and what they eat, although I don't think anyone believes rotten vegetation, metal twist ties and rubber bands are a proper tortoise diet. You can bet PETA has seen these videos and they will act if we don't. We can convince PACC to be more involved and to bring in expert help with at least properly investigating.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by jarich

Really Aaron?! The guy who says that buying animals from pet stores propagates further animal abuse is now saying that instead of letting this guy's animals die to get him shut down, says people should instead now go in and fix his problem so that he is able to take in new animals and continue torturing others? Sounds like a convenient change of heart.

There is no fixing this guy's problems. He has been at this abuse for 12 years. He is such an obvious liar and animal abuser, who thinks he is doing nothing wrong and has no need to change anything. I'm shocked by the fact that you would rather be right and prove a point than admit the fact that this man keeps these animals in squalor and should not be helped to continue this abuse in anyway. Take those volunteers and picket at this man's front door. Take them and get them to volunteer calling city council until he is shut down. That will make a difference to the future of reptiles in this area. Everything else is a bandaid.

Again, you twist my words.

I spoke about BAD pet stores. There's plenty of good ones to support. There's a difference here. One's a for profit business and one is where a guy has people drop them at his door step. Animals dying to him won't stop him.

I only made one suggestion. Go ahead. Get a group to picket. I'm fine with either or. It seems no one else wants to turn a bad thing good. The only solution to everyone is to shut it down instead of education. I thought that's what we were supposed to do?

[jarich]

I didnt twist your words as I didnt use them. I used your point to show your inconsistency.

The point here is that someone in our community came here to show deplorable conditions in a rescue; so deplorable, in fact, that she felt overwhelmed and walked out, and tried to get some support from us. Rather than support her in the correct decision of getting the authorities involved, there were members who attacked her for being lazy, and defended the guy who was so obviously inept and doesnt deserve to have any animals, much less a rescue. The only good here would be to get this guy's animals out of his hands as soon as possible, and fixing his problems for him isnt going to get that result. Its well and good to say that someone should go clean their tanks, but that isnt going to help the authorities gain enough ammunition to shut him down, nor is cleaning the only problem with their care. From the video, this guy obviously thinks he already knows how to care for them best and doesnt think he is doing anything wrong. He is unwilling to accept blame of any kind and change, so the best course of action is what is getting them away from him. Its terrible that these animals will continue to suffer until they are out of his hands, but going out to clean their cages isnt going to change that.

In case any of you are obtuse enough to think the conditions there are 'good enough', go check out what temperature Tucson got down to last night. Nevermind, Ill do it for you; it got down to 31 degrees there, colder than here in NYC last night. Then think about that tegu on the porch with only thin plastic between him and the outside, or that one board separating the bearded dragon and pythons from the outside. Oh but right, the sulcata's had that one little CHE under the tarp, that should be fine for all four or five of them. Ya, Doberman, its just a bit of cleaning that is the only problem there. Im shocked any of those animals are alive still and it only goes to show how much reptiles can endure before dying.

Aaron, its comical that you said you lost respect for USARK for infighting yet fail to support most members in a constructive way here, choosing instead to nitpick and argue all under the guise of "not sugar coating" things. You didnt just make 'one suggestion' in this thread. You attacked a person for being emotional about a gross injustice. At least be man enough to own up to your comments and admit when youre wrong. You dont get to play the innocent simply because your argument doesnt hold water.

And yes, Doberman, its fairly obvious about how old you are. I didnt say you were old, I said you were acting like an old guy from Scooby Doo. And by all means bow out, your contribution here wasnt worth it from the beginning anyway.

[dinosaurdammit]

At eleven in the morning her temp gun said in the heated section of the tort pen was sixty degrees. Think about the night temps. Don't still call that cruel?

[TucsonRES]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Again, you twist my words.

I spoke about BAD pet stores. There's plenty of good ones to support. There's a difference here. One's a for profit business and one is where a guy has people drop them at his door step. Animals dying to him won't stop him.

I only made one suggestion. Go ahead. Get a group to picket. I'm fine with either or. It seems no one else wants to turn a bad thing good. The only solution to everyone is to shut it down instead of education. I thought that's what we were supposed to do?

Aaron_S. I think that maybe you are missing a small part of this story and the equation here. There is no licensing requirement here to be a rescue. Also, this" rescue" is NOT registered as a Non-Profit Company. Therefore, if it is any sort of business entity, it's a for profit business.