Monitor Care & Natural History; Zoo & Pet Experiences

[dinosaurdammit]

Originally Posted by varanus1

I was sad to see last year at a zoo near me komodos kept so back in time with husbandy they had no basking lamps whats so ever and only got heat from skylight on sunny days and they looked terrible and never moved around.

for such endangered animals there should be EXTRA care with them, this s shameful- ugh. Poor guys.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by varanus1

I was sad to see last year at a zoo near me komodos kept so back in time with husbandy they had no basking lamps whats so ever and only got heat from skylight on sunny days and they looked terrible and never moved around.

Hi, do you know how long the monitors have been at the zoo? I find it strange in as much as the info on captive care of the species is nowadays readily available, and I would have thought would have been passed on when the zoo aquired them if it`s relatively recently?

[varanus1]

i have no idea how long ive been their 2 times in several years and it were their. Ive only seen one also.

[Zoo Nanny]

If there are burrows or caves in the exhibit there may possibly be heating and lighting available inside of them. A number of zoos are also using large rock like structures which are heated for laying on.

[crocdoc]

For what it's worth, I wasn't intending to bash zoos in my post, just explain that sometimes circumstances prevent zoos (or individual keepers) from changing things, so even the best intentions may not get anywhere.

[AjaMichelle]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi Miss AjaMichelle,
you`ve learned so much in a relatively short time, that`s due to your willingness to listen to and act on advise offered.
I thank you for deciding to get into the hobby (even though at times you`re a tease)....

Haha I want to learn as much as humanly possible and as quickly as possible, and I know I have benefitted more than I can describe from knowledgeable individuals who make an effort to make good husbandry information available. I hope that eventually the good information will be more prevalent than the bad, but to make that happen we need people to continue to correct out-dated husbandry techniques.

Thank you for helping me when I was first starting out, and continuing to be a source for ideas and discussion. I wouldn't be a very good scientist if I was unwilling to listen to new perspectives and alter my method when appropriate. I don't want to ever lose a monitor to something I could have prevented had I done enough research, and luckily for me, I believe I have started out on the right foot thanks to the availability of good information.

[Vegasarah]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

Having worked in a few zoos and zoo type facilities, the three main issues (listed in order of greatest to least influence) are:



1. Display. Most reptile displays have a large window in the front, with basking lights installed above the window so that they are out of the public's view. It is very hard to maintain high basking temperatures at those sorts of distances, so trying to keep an attractive, naturalist display while meeting the needs of the animals is not always easy. I have worked in one facility that managed this, but only with massive metal halide lights and tissue heaters above the display window.



2. Red tape. In most zoos, for a keeper to make a change it usually must first get approved by several other people, from senior keepers up to the curator and often the vet. Given the status quo, trying to convince everyone that a really hot basking spot is the way to go is often trickier than it would seem.



3. An (for lack of a better word) inertia based on the 'but we've always done it this way' principle. Monitors seem to do okay with low basking spot temperatures because they can linger in sub-optimal conditions for a long time. It may take years for the effects to become obvious and even then the connection between the basking temperature (mainly because they'd always been the same) and the untimely death is not made (as per this thread). Unless one has had experience with monitors living with hot basking temperatures, in which case the behaviour differences are immediately visible.

I don't know anything about the way that zoos are run, thank you very much for clearing that up for me. I totally understand all of this, and it makes a lot of sense that this is the way that it is in zoos. Or for that matter any other company, business, etc. It would probably be a massive undertaking to re-structure the enclosures and displays in order to rectify the 'low basking temp' situation that zoo monitors are facing. It's kind of one of those things where you say 'where to start?'. I think that the older that Wayne's Savs get, the more clear the message will be. Video evidence is a great way to show people the differences. Another good thing to think about is getting the new Savs checked out by a (hopefully the same one) vet that dealt with Chomper. I know that as a private keeper, Wayne's 'in your face' approach to proper husbandry really helped me make the right decision. While Chomper was a great lizard, LF and Cera are WILD. They act like the Savs you see on documentaries. I feel like that was enough for me, and will hopefully be enough for BOTH zoos and private keepers to sit up and take notice. Thanks again for that information, it was very helpful.

[Vegasarah]

Originally Posted by AjaMichelle

Haha I want to learn as much as humanly possible and as quickly as possible, and I know I have benefitted more than I can describe from knowledgeable individuals who make an effort to make good husbandry information available. I hope that eventually the good information will be more prevalent than the bad, but to make that happen we need people to continue to correct out-dated husbandry techniques.

Thank you for helping me when I was first starting out, and continuing to be a source for ideas and discussion. I wouldn't be a very good scientist if I was unwilling to listen to new perspectives and alter my method when appropriate. I don't want to ever lose a monitor to something I could have prevented had I done enough research, and luckily for me, I believe I have started out on the right foot thanks to the availability of good information.

I feel the same way. I'm very grateful to everyone that has helped me on my own threads and to those that continue to share their wealth of information on threads such as this one. I'm hoping to one day work in a zoo either as a vet or a research specialist. This thread is so helpful and extremely interesting. Thank you to all that contribute to it, your knowledge is invaluable.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Vegasarah

Another good thing to think about is getting the new Savs checked out by a (hopefully the same one) vet that dealt with Chomper. I know that as a private keeper, Wayne's 'in your face' approach to proper husbandry really helped me make the right decision. While Chomper was a great lizard, LF and Cera are WILD. They act like the Savs you see on documentaries. I feel like that was enough for me, and will hopefully be enough for BOTH zoos and private keepers to sit up and take notice. Thanks again for that information, it was very helpful.

Sarah, I appreciate the kind words, But I would be remiss if I did not fully disclose the entire Veterinarian experience.

Dr. Sanford is a brilliant woman with a degree from Cornell & a masters degree from the University of Maryland at College Park. However while I was in her office (multiple times) we could not agree on acceptable husbandry practices.

Apparently, these two fine Universities are still teaching outdated husbandry.

She swore that a basking spot exceeding 100 degrees would harm my lizards! she advised shallow substrates, large water bowls and an invert only diet.

Because of her education, she refused to accept what a common "street person" as myself attempted to offer her.

Her only role in the final test results was sending samples from Chomper to a laboratory for analysis, I was on my own to interpret the results, and it was Crocdoc who suggested the final summary of the data she obtained for me.

She knew his kidneys had shut down, she knew (via lab work) that his uric acid levels were so high that it was lethal, but she could not say why.

It was Robert Mendyk's research that led me to know and accept that chronic exposure to insufficient temperatures inhibited renal tubule function, and common sense that led me in the direction of respiration of dry air strips away precious body moisture. (Reviewed and confirmed by Crocdoc)

[Vegasarah]

I meant only to have comparable results with Chomper's husbandry and LF and Cera's. If you still have those lab results, then that's all you really need. Doing the same blood work, labs, and fecals on your current guys will produce the comparative information you need in order for people such as your vet to sit up and take notice.

Have you ever thought about working with a vet/ pathologist/ scientist to create your own papers on this research as it is happening in your household? I know that private keepers often get shrugged off as just the guy on the street, but if you were to work with some of the fantastic people on here that could change? Zoos and vets and universities are going to take better to a formal submission rather than to spoken word or something on an internet forum. It's a real shame that these are the people doling out advice and medical care and will not hear of anything short of scientific.

[Pirarucu]

This whole thing is why I love Moody Gardens. Natural sunlight for heat in a greenhouse on the Texas coast. It's almost impossible to go wrong with that kind of setup.

[bodiddleyitis]

Originally Posted by Vegasarah

They act like the Savs you see on documentaries.

Are there documentaries with savannah monitors? I want to see them!

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by bodiddleyitis

Are there documentaries with savannah monitors? I want to see them!

Me too!

I think she meant monitors Daniel.

My video library covers just about every known documentary there is excluding the Butaan special (Missed a rerun by an hour a few months ago)

Have the entire "BBC Life" with David Attenborough (highly recommended to anyone), Lizard Kings, a half dozen komodoensis documentaries, But I have never seen one Bosc even mentioned in any of them.

Even the "Attenborough's Africa - Savannah" has not one second of Bosc footage. (still a brilliant film)

[alessia55]

As someone not involved in the varanid world, why do you think that savs aren't covered or touched on in documentaries, like in the Attenborough's Africa - Savannah?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by alessia55

As someone not involved in the Varanid world, why do you think that savs aren't covered or touched on in documentaries, like in the Attenborough Africa - Savannah?

Because the viewing public is far more captivated with Lions, colourful birds, Zebras, primates & the other animals seen in Disney movies and zoos.

we have to remember, these films are made to captivate a very large audience, there was not even mention of Python Regius either.


This is also why there is so many Komodo dragon specials, everyone has heard of them, everyone is interested in them.

However (no disrespect intended) so many Komodo Dragon specials have been made that a few of them are just compilations of footage from previous specials, or over glorification of the rare attacks on humans.

I have a special presented by Stephen Fry (UK comedian of Black adder fame) that was more about the journey and the personal experiences of the presenters than it was about the lizards. 30 minutes into the special I was still wondering when the heck they were going to actually present something of interest about the dragons themselves.