The UVB Varanid debate !

[infernalis]

It should not take a rocket scientist to conclude that animals that have thrived for MILLIONS of years living in the tropics where the UV index is very high, leading a diurnal life and basking in a tropical sun shouldn't have a little UV in their lives.

What is the point in DENYING IT?? to save money?? if you can't afford a few extra dollars for some decent lighting, then Varanid keeping is not for you.....

We spend hundred upon hundreds, some of us thousands upon thousands of dollars in housing, feeding and maintaining these awesome animals, so a few more dollars for a metal halide lamp or two should in all reality be the least of your worries.

[mdfmonitor]

I've always found there's a lot to be learned from old school!!

Many of these old school keepers have bred that same pair over many years & their hatchlings look stunning as do the adult parents.

Uv bulbs are crap compared to natural sunlight as we all know, but i don't have a problem with adding it to my enclosure.

I've used 2 compact eco terra 400 uvb bulbs, they are on the lower level on one side of the viv fitted into domes with a white background, the domes will keep the uvb light in one area & using white inners on the domes won't over intensify the uvb light.

They don't give off to much heat so i can keep my lower ground temps & still allow my basking area to operate without alteration to the set-up.

I'ved used old school methods & he's currently still growing 3" a month & i'm only feeding around 2/3 of the month at around 4.5 foot, in other words i'm holding him back! & he has hell of a feeding response.
8 months ago>

recently (1 year old) >


first day after putting uvb bulb in, i took this pic of him basking under the new bulb that i added, not sure why yet! maybe likes the uvb!! i'll see what my observations are over the next month or so, both bulbs are set at different heights.

[B_Aller]

I'm sorry I just don't buy into it. The argument seems to boil down to "it's beneficial because it is...it must be... i mean right?"
I don't think these man made bulbs are offering anything but a possible maybe tiny, tiny fraction of a good thing.
So eyesight and white blood count is improved? Prove it.
I call BS on that.
How are you measuring eyesight improvement?
Ever cut open a dead captive monitor? How about a hundred? What do you see in common?
For my money, substrate is a better investment. Better functioning cages are a better investment. More, quality food is a better investment.
With all this UV bulb talk, any of you ever built outdoor enclosures for your animals? Ever seen the results of long term exposure to natural sunlight? What is it?
I spent years moving animals in and out of outdoor enclosures to make sure they had access to natural sunlight...any guesses as to what the results were?
Best.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

I'm sorry I just don't buy into it. The argument seems to boil down to "it's beneficial because it is...it must be... i mean right?"
I don't think these man made bulbs are offering anything but a possible maybe tiny, tiny fraction of a good thing.
So eyesight and white blood count is improved? Prove it.
I call BS on that.
How are you measuring eyesight improvement?
Ever cut open a dead captive monitor? How about a hundred? What do you see in common?
For my money, substrate is a better investment. Better functioning cages are a better investment. More, quality food is a better investment.
With all this UV bulb talk, any of you ever built outdoor enclosures for your animals? Ever seen the results of long term exposure to natural sunlight? What is it?
I spent years moving animals in and out of outdoor enclosures to make sure they had access to natural sunlight...any guesses as to what the results were?
Best.

I guess I dont really understand how you can take a large body of scientifically researched knowledge and reduce it all to "its beneficial because it is...it has to be...I mean right". Again, I think its worth saying, dont take our word for it. Please dont take my word for it, or anyone else here. Do the research yourself, take the word of the people who have been studying this exact topic for as long as youve kept monitors, and in many cases even longer. People whose sole job is to research the Vit D cycle in reptiles. That actually exists! The wonderful thing about technology today is that you dont even have to leave your home to find it. Spend an hour online and you will find all the evidence you need to convince you. Or even contact the people directly who have done this research, if you arent convinced. I can give you the email addresses of the top researchers in this field. They are all very nice people who have studied this topic for literally decades and are more than happy to answer well thought out questions. People like Dr Baines, Dr Gehrmann, Dr Brames, Dr Ferguson have all responded to my emails quickly and with great information. Start with their extensive research on this exact topic and see if you arent then convinced. PLEASE do NOT take our word for it. Dont let your lack of research hold you back in providing something of benefit to your lizards. Of course, no bulb is as good as the sun, just like no enclosure is as big as nature, just like no recreated diet is as good as their wild one. That argument holds no water. I dont provide the lighting system I do because I think it mimics the sun. I provide it because it is the best lighting system available to them that I can offer. I take similar care with trying to give them the best diet and with the soil in the substrate. One does not take away from the other

You are right, if there is a limited amount of money available to a keeper, then I think it should be spent on substrate first, or a proper diet first. However, those of us on this thread (and hopefully all monitor keepers) do not have that problem where its a limited choice scenario. I can provide both a deep, moist, bioactive substrate AND proper lighting to aid in the production of the vitamin d cycle. However, I do not have the option of an outdoor enclosure. I envy you that ability, but I live in an apartment in NYC. I have no outdoor area to build an enclosure in. I would agree that taking an animal outside for at least 2 hours a day in sunlight for the summer would greatly reduce the need for any special UVB lighting. However, it would still seem necessary to include the UVA lighting in their enclosures so that they could see normally. While I have not personally cut open the eyes of hundreds of monitors, I know that the research has been done so that I can say they have the ability to see UVA like you and I see the colour blue. In fact, a great many reptiles can. Its not an option to say they dont. If you think they dont, its because YOU cant see it. Which is what the argument against providing proper lighting essentially boils down to. YOU cant see it, so you think it doesnt exist. Im starting to understand how vanLeeuwenhoek felt when he introduced the world to microorganisms. Just because you cant see it, doesnt mean it doesnt exist, that it isnt beneficial.

The knowledge is there Ben. If you dont take our word for it, then all you have to do is go look at it yourself. Its at your fingertips nowadays, so there is no reason not to improve your base of knowledge.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by infernalis

It should not take a rocket scientist to conclude that animals that have thrived for MILLIONS of years living in the tropics where the UV index is very high, leading a diurnal life and basking in a tropical sun shouldn't have a little UV in their lives.

What is the point in DENYING IT?? to save money?? if you can't afford a few extra dollars for some decent lighting, then Varanid keeping is not for you.....

We spend hundred upon hundreds, some of us thousands upon thousands of dollars in housing, feeding and maintaining these awesome animals, so a few more dollars for a metal halide lamp or two should in all reality be the least of your worries.

Hi Wayne, your two Savannah monitors have not had exposure to artificial (or real?) UVB or supplements for the last 22 months, I believe? I suggest instead of buying a couple of metal halide bulbs + ballasts you take your animals to a qualified and experienced vet and have blood tests done to determine their D3 levels. I think they are quite good candidates because they HAVE received a decent whole prey diet (even if at times too little in my personal opinion), proper temp and humidity ranges, etc. If they are deficient in that respect you can then suggest UVB exposure may indeed be beneficial/needed for captive Varanids kept otherwise "fully supported". Obviously this is just 2 animals, but it`s a start!

[jarich]

It seems on this we agree Stephan! I'd be willing to hazard a guess on your results Wayne..

[smy_749]

Wayne has UVB I thought, just the fixture is higher up than recommended.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Wayne has UVB I thought, just the fixture is higher up than recommended.

Hi, initially I believe the UVB tube was fixed on the ceiling which means it was around 4 feet away, making it of no benefit whatsoever, then Wayne mentioned afew months ago he`d moved it closer (18 inches), that still makes it of virtually no use as far as any significant UVB`s concerned.
I do fully appreciate he was worried the monitors might climb on it and break it (very possible), though it would be fairly easy to place a guard around it...

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by jarich

It seems on this we agree Stephan! I'd be willing to hazard a guess on your results Wayne..

So hazard a guess, Josh.....

[mdfmonitor]

I need to dig back through old vids & pics etc to see how often i had a compact uv in, but it would of been near to useless the height & quality etc back then, but i'm fairly sure he was mainly on insect diet at the time of this blood test, gut loaded & dusted black crickets.

This was my sav that i lost due ill health caused by a crappy cage set-up a few years back, wasn't long after the blood test i had him put to sleep.


Take blood sample
Reptile Profile 1
Ultrasound scan
injecti Fortum Injectable
injecti Baytril Inj 2.5%
inject2 Anivit B12
Bavtrj

BIOCHEMISTRY
Total Protein 58.8 g/l ( 42 - 105
Albumin 13.7 g/l (12—35)
Globulin 45.1 g/l C 34 — 66
Calcium 3.02 mmoi/1 ( 2.85 — 4.38
Phosphorus 0.87 =01/1 C 0.52 — 4.62
AST 16 u/i (1—170)
CR 156 u/i (150-9080)
Uric Acid 175 umol/1 C 71 — 1071

HAflIATOLOGY
Raemoglobin 6.3 g/dl ( 6.2 - 13.2
Haematocrit 0.22 1/1 C 0.21 - 0.51
Red Blood cells 0.94 lOAl2/l ( 0.63 — 1.58
NOV 234.0 fl C 228.6 — 391.7
MCRC 28.6 g/dl ( 25.9 — 38.3
NCR * 67.0 pg Low ( e9.4 — 99.2
White Blood cells 10.0 lO°9/l ( 1.2 — 11.3
Heterophils 38.0% 3.80 lOA9/l ( 0.28 — 5.88
Lymphocytes 50.0% 5.00 lOA9/l ( 0.22 — 5.25
Eosinophils 1.0% 0.10 lO’9/l
Monocytea 1.0% 0.10 lOA9/l C 0.06 — 6.67
Azurophils 9.0% 0.90 lO°9/l ( 0.11 — 1.96
Basophila 1.0% 0.10 10A9/l ( 0.03 — 1.66
Thromhocytes 18 lOA9/l
Film Comment NBC: The red cells show a slight to moderate degree of
anisocytosis, nuclei poikilocytoaia, alight
polychroiamsia and slight hypochromia.
NBC: The white hlood cell morphology appears normal.
Examined hy NBc, MSc, MIENS
clinical coxmaent
the only comment to make here ia the NBC morphological coxmaent which may reflect anorexia/malnutrition (note he was always well fed)
,

[formica]

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

I need to dig back through old vids & pics etc to see how often i had a compact uv in, but it would of been near to useless the height & quality etc back then, but i'm fairly sure he was mainly on insect diet at the time of this blood test, gut loaded & dusted black crickets.

This was my sav that i lost due ill health caused by a crappy cage set-up a few years back, wasn't long after the blood test i had him put to sleep.


Take blood sample
Reptile Profile 1
Ultrasound scan
injecti Fortum Injectable
injecti Baytril Inj 2.5%
inject2 Anivit B12
Bavtrj

BIOCHEMISTRY
Total Protein 58.8 g/l ( 42 - 105
Albumin 13.7 g/l (12—35)
Globulin 45.1 g/l C 34 — 66
Calcium 3.02 mmoi/1 ( 2.85 — 4.38
Phosphorus 0.87 =01/1 C 0.52 — 4.62
AST 16 u/i (1—170)
CR 156 u/i (150-9080)
Uric Acid 175 umol/1 C 71 — 1071

HAflIATOLOGY
Raemoglobin 6.3 g/dl ( 6.2 - 13.2
Haematocrit 0.22 1/1 C 0.21 - 0.51
Red Blood cells 0.94 lOAl2/l ( 0.63 — 1.58
NOV 234.0 fl C 228.6 — 391.7
MCRC 28.6 g/dl ( 25.9 — 38.3
NCR * 67.0 pg Low ( e9.4 — 99.2
White Blood cells 10.0 lO°9/l ( 1.2 — 11.3
Heterophils 38.0% 3.80 lOA9/l ( 0.28 — 5.88
Lymphocytes 50.0% 5.00 lOA9/l ( 0.22 — 5.25
Eosinophils 1.0% 0.10 lO’9/l
Monocytea 1.0% 0.10 lOA9/l C 0.06 — 6.67
Azurophils 9.0% 0.90 lO°9/l ( 0.11 — 1.96
Basophila 1.0% 0.10 10A9/l ( 0.03 — 1.66
Thromhocytes 18 lOA9/l
Film Comment NBC: The red cells show a slight to moderate degree of
anisocytosis, nuclei poikilocytoaia, alight
polychroiamsia and slight hypochromia.
NBC: The white hlood cell morphology appears normal.
Examined hy NBc, MSc, MIENS
clinical coxmaent
the only comment to make here ia the NBC morphological coxmaent which may reflect anorexia/malnutrition (note he was always well fed)
,

interesting, I dont know what half of those are, is there kidney function in there somewhere?

I know that anemia and kidney disease go hand in hand with anisocytosis - when you say crappy setup, can you be more specific?

anyone else got blood test results they can post up? would be very interesting to see, esp if there are some interesting differences between them, and climate control/diet etc - maybe it needs a new thread so this doesnt go off course

[mdfmonitor]

Originally Posted by formica

interesting, I dont know what half of those are, is there kidney function in there somewhere?

I know that anemia and kidney disease go hand in hand with anisocytosis - when you say crappy setup, can you be more specific?

anyone else got blood test results they can post up? would be very interesting to see, esp if there are some interesting differences between them, and climate control/diet etc - maybe it needs a new thread so this doesnt go off course

Crappy set-up as in not good for monitor!! not good at holding humidity etc

It's relevant to the calcium levels in the blood whilst using uv or not, i need to look back through pics around that time over a 3 year period & see when i used uv etc.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, initially I believe the UVB tube was fixed on the ceiling which means it was around 4 feet away,

The only way your math works here is assuming a recessed fixture and a bare cage floor.

Light fixture hangs down fom cieling of cage nearly 12 inches, soil substrate on floor of cage 24 inches deep.

4 feet is 48 inches, subtract the 36 inches and figure the rest out for yourself.

Now figure that my lizards still walk tall, their backs almost brush in direct contact with that tube.

[jarich]

I have my latest results but they would not be particularly useful in this case either. My female was just going into egg production when I got them, so her calcium is through the roof, uric acid high, etc. However, none of these tests show a measure of the D metabolites, which is the only test that the difference would show up on.

[murrindindi]

http://www.varanus.us/cage/cage.jpg

Hi Wayne, where`s the 24 inches of substrate, CLEARLY nowhere near, in spite of constantly telling everyone else they must have that depth as a minimum, plus it`s sloped up at on end, there`s even less depth on the right hand side!? I`m pretty sure when you got the UVB tube it was fixed on the roof (or very close to it, according to the pics you showed)? You put photos up on several websites at the time and told everyone "they even have UVB"!?
You quite recently informed me on another website (HC?) that the tube was now within 18 inches of them, it`s still too far to be of any benefit!
When I have a little time I`ll post the links to your comments and other photos... I do wish you`d stop contradicting yourself so regularly, it`s so darn confusing!