Why are so many people opposed to keeping wild snakes as pets?

[Skits]

I believe if you get a wild caught animal and give them proper space and care, and that the animal isn't overly stressed being in an enclosure that it's fine. I've raised a wild caught toad, and she's become so dependent of me that she would never make it in the wild. And I see it that if you are able to catch the animal, anyone could of caught it and that person could take improper care of the animal, hurt it, kill it, etc. Better for it to be safe in a good home.

Edit: Didn't read through the pages oops! Didn't realise the subject changed so much

[Lurker]

I don't know how strong a Black Rat Snake is, but if you think you have 20 seconds to casually correct whatever is cutting off your carotid arteries you might want to think again. I have personally put out a training partner within 3 seconds of applying a strangle, from force of squeezing alone.
You also assumed the snake would slither off, and you'd come right back, yet claimed the snake was enjoying your body heat. Assume instead that the snake puts you out, and stays because it's a dang snake and you are warm (still). You'd be in some trouble.

People often underestimate how strangles actually work, and how easily you can lose consciousness. Feeling the power inside a coastal carpet python moving around my arms was enough to tell me never let a snake near my neck.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by RandomStranger

It wasn't choking me, just tightening somewhat. If I DID pass out, no one would need to find me because the snake would slither off and I'd wake up in a few minutes. No problem. Plus I was ready to slip my hand in between the snake in my neck for breathing room if it randomly decided it wanted to suffocate me hahaha. Not too worried about it. I'd have at least 20 seconds to react to it tightening enough to try to suffocate me (Plus it wasn't THAT big)

20 seconds?? Your having a laugh, IF (and i agree it is a big IF) the snake hits the correct pressure points you will be unconscious BEFORE you have a chance to react. Professional MMA fighters that KNOW that the other fighter is putting a "choke" hold on dont last 20 seconds.

If you fall and smash your skull you wont wake up either, but you will add another statistic to the figures of those people trying to put a stop to the hobby we all love. Also, when you fall you may hurt the snake and noone wants that to happen.

The size of the snake is irrelevant, if you want proof join an MMA class and ask the sensei to put you out - maybe you will understand more then.

[SnakeyJay]

A couple of pounds of pressure on your main arteries is all it takes to knock someone unconscious... My 4ft corn snake made me go dizzy when I made that mistake... He slipped so tightened his hold, strong little guy

[Kingsnakechris]

Yeah, in the army were trained to deal with hand to hand situations, the first and foremost rule is DO NOT LET THEM get a headlock or attempt to choke you. Unconsciousness happens VERY quick... Then your S.O.L

[jaleely]

Nuh uh, Xena says there's 30 seconds before you pass out from lack of blood to the brain!

apex...i see, you only have two so called poached snakes. Well, two is reasonable. It's just two. We should all go take only two.

Btw do you have *any* experience with poisonous snakes besides your coral? Do you keep anti-venom?

But, taking snakes from the wild, that are protected...for some just obnoxious reason instead of a real reason...and going off to kill rattle snakes. Clearly i would trust that you would be responsible with a poisonous snake and that you would take any sick snakes to a vet! Silly me.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

20 seconds?? Your having a laugh, IF (and i agree it is a big IF) the snake hits the correct pressure points you will be unconscious BEFORE you have a chance to react. Professional MMA fighters that KNOW that the other fighter is putting a "choke" hold on dont last 20 seconds.

If you fall and smash your skull you wont wake up either, but you will add another statistic to the figures of those people trying to put a stop to the hobby we all love. Also, when you fall you may hurt the snake and noone wants that to happen.

The size of the snake is irrelevant, if you want proof join an MMA class and ask the sensei to put you out - maybe you will understand more then.

^^^^^
have to aghree with you rob

when i taught judo it took roughly 5 to 10 seconds to render someone incapable,using a cartoid artery chock

windpipe takes a little longer,but NO where near 20 to 30 seconds

2 to 4 seconds has most folk tapping out,before its too late and they're unconcious

re cartoid arteys
imo,when you close down the cartoid artey,oxygen is pretty much instantly cut from the brain,which imo leaves about 3 to 5 seconds before your head goes fuzzy,because your starting to black out

cheers shaun

[red ink]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

^^^^^
have to aghree with you rob

when i taught judo it took roughly 5 to 10 seconds to render someone incapable,using a cartoid artery chock

windpipe takes a little longer,but NO where near 20 to 30 seconds

2 to 4 seconds has most folk tapping out,before its too late and they're unconcious

re cartoid arteys
imo,when you close down the cartoid artey,oxygen is pretty much instantly cut from the brain,which imo leaves about 3 to 5 seconds before your head goes fuzzy,because your starting to black out

cheers shaun

Yes a couple of minutes later even if your windpipe is not blocked and your breathing... brain damage start to occur

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by red ink

Yes a couple of minutes later even if your windpipe is not blocked and your breathing... brain damage start to occur

^^^^^
agree with you 100% mate

at our judo club we taught the kids,to tap out the " very second " a cartoid chock was put on them

it was to avoid brain damage,which occurs rapidly if the cartoids remain closed

the brain gets starved of oxygen and if held long enough will cause irreversable damage

if the kids let themselves be rendered unconcious,due to being too stubborn to tap out,they were excluded from the club for 4 to 6 weeks,as we could not take the chance of a kid being permantly damaged,also to trach them what they were learning was NOT a game and could have lethal consiquences

cheers shaun

[jaleely]

I just saw something totally awesome on this thread. Wayne you are great! lol maybe not fair of me, but i say good choice.

[infernalis]

Long overdue.. Aaron may be disappointed, he will have to find someone new to pick on now.

[Mose]

Interesting thread, even though I'm late to the party. Lots of great points made - too many for me to comment on at this point, but I do have a few comments. First, I 100% support efforts to rely on CBB animals in our hobby rather than WC, for all of the reasons already mentioned. I regularly field herp, and have for 20 years, but I only bring back photos and memories from my trips. I don't have a single animal in my collection that is native to my area. Having said that, if I came across an animal that was very unique in some way, I would consider bringing it home and breeding it for the purposes of introducing its unique characteristics into the hobby. Aside from that, my philosophy is to let wild things stay wild.

The state in which I live (Nebraska) has wildlife laws that cover both game and non-game species. Species that are not protected as endangered or threatened can be harvested as long as a license is purchased. So if I want to fish for bass, I just purchase a license, and as long as I comply with bag limits and all other regulations, I am free to go out and fish as much as I want to. Non-game species like snakes can be collected ("harvested") in exactly the same way, with the same license. If I have a fishing license, and want to catch a garter snake and keep it, I can legally do so and not be "poaching". I have friends at the Game and Parks division, and none of them have seen cases of excessive collection of native herps. The bag limits effectively protect native species from large scale commercial collection, while preserving the freedom of individuals to collect the occasional animal. The system seems to work just fine here.

Originally Posted by red ink

LOL... Obviously AZ are trying to preserve them in their endemic range... What's already out there in other states is of no concern to them as they are not wild and already in captivity. Hence the laws only apply against keeping and POACHING in that state.

Maybe or maybe not. A number of states have strict laws against keeping native snakes, which means residents are breaking the law if they go out in their back yard, collect a snake, and do a great job of keeping it in a perfectly suitable enclosure in their home. However, in many of those states, it is perfectly legal for those same residents to go out in their back yard with a shovel and kill every snake they see. So...indiscriminately slaughtering them is fine, but keeping and breeding them makes one a criminal. Can you explain to me how laws like that are meant to "preserve them in their endemic range..."? Maybe I'm cynical, but I suspect motives other than "concern for our native snakes" are behind laws like that.

[Kingsnakechris]

The law out here (AZ) is similar but there are certain snakes we can not collect. I don't agree with WC either, but I do agree that it's a bit backwards to be allowed to kill a native species and not be penalized but collecting one poses a hefty fine.

[Mose]

Originally Posted by Kingsnakechris

The law out here (AZ) is similar but there are certain snakes we can not collect.

Same here. For example, Nebraska is on the extreme northeast edge of the range of Arizona elegans, so they are only found in a few counties on the southern edge of the state. Consequently they are listed as "locally endangered", even though they are quite common in other states. It is therefore illegal to collect or possess one in Nebraska, as it should be. On the other hand, Plains Garter snakes are EVERYWHERE. Every time I mow my lawn, I have to stop, catch, and move at least 5 to the marshy area next to my property so I don't slice-and-dice them. It would make no sense at all to prohibit collection of that species. I just think that blanket laws that cover possession of all native species are a bit excessive.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by Mose

Maybe or maybe not. A number of states have strict laws against keeping native snakes, which means residents are breaking the law if they go out in their back yard, collect a snake, and do a great job of keeping it in a perfectly suitable enclosure in their home. However, in many of those states, it is perfectly legal for those same residents to go out in their back yard with a shovel and kill every snake they see. So...indiscriminately slaughtering them is fine, but keeping and breeding them makes one a criminal. Can you explain to me how laws like that are meant to "preserve them in their endemic range..."? Maybe I'm cynical, but I suspect motives other than "concern for our native snakes" are behind laws like that.

That would be in the legalities of the "protected" species.... In most cases a protected species would mean no collecting, no keeping and "no destruction". Unfortunately that "no destruction" part is where the grey area starts... Native wildlife laws (at least here) dictates we may not possess native animals without appropriate license (barring some species). We are not allowed to collect any species from the wild at all, regardless of conservation status.

We are however allowed to destroy/kill native wildlife in defense of people or livestock (grey area)....

So in most cases it would come down to individual ethics and morals. A person that has no interest in reptiles killing them in the in defense of wildlife clause; nothing we can do about it as the laws allow them to.

A person with a supposed love/interest in reptiles doing the same thing i.e. illegal collection or killing instead of calling a relocator is a reprehensible act in my book.

So at the finer points it would come down to the semantics of the legislation... most people would hear it's illegal to keep them but not to kill them and their happy with that. How many people actually would be interested in the semantics of the law that is involved?

I actually tried to find the legalities of AZ collection in regards to king snakes through the state website... vague and convoluded but I did find that the Sonoran king snake is a "protected" species.... the level of protection from their PDFs was not clearly stated unfortunately.